Progression of a commercial pilot

T

Trevor Merrill

New Member
I am interested in making a career out of flying. Let me start out before anyone points me over there, I have read this whole post: http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/does-anyone-know-a-good-place-to-build-hours-fast.132728/. I was set on moving to become a commercial pilot as quick as possible until reading this, now I am open to any advice people are willing to offer. One major question I had in regards to this, is many people say take your time, stay out of debt, enjoy it. I can see why that would make for a better ride, but how does one go about doing that? I am looking at doing ATP fast-track which does rack up tons of debt. While trying to find options to make a career out of being a pilot, I did not see many other options. What does everyone recommend?

PS: After talking to ATP yesterday, they told me it would be about 75k to get my multi with 100hrs, and I would be guaranteed a CFI job. I was told that job would pay about 24k a year and would take me 18 months to get hours to the 1500 hour mark to open a ton of different options, one of which working for one of their regional airlines making about 45k a year and then reach 3rd year captain at 65k a year. Is this accurate? I also see a lot of people so enjoy it and don't rush with the hours, where my question in response is, then how does one make a living? 24k a year is very little especially while paying off debt so I would like to move out of that pay grade quickly, but I also want to enjoy my experience and not get burnt out.

Any and all advice will be very appreciated.
 
Trevor Merrill said:
one of which working for one of their regional airlines making about 45k a year and then reach 3rd year captain at 65k a year. Is this accurate?
Click to expand...

Captain in 3 years? A bit optimistic. I know plenty of 8 year FO's still barely making 45k... 24k is still more typical for a first year FO.

A good goal to start out is to get a private pilot's certificate someplace local. You'll need that anyway no matter what you do. Should run about 8k, and you can take a few months to do it / pay for it. After that, you'll have a better idea of what your options are, and how to do things more cost effectively. Depending on where you are, it is still reasonable to get an instrument, commercial and CFI for about 35k. That's all you need to start teaching, and by the time you are close to 1,200 hours of so, you should start seeing opportunities come up.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Captain in 3 years? A bit optimistic. I know plenty of 8 year FO's still barely making 45k... 24k is still more typical for a first year FO.
Click to expand...
Projected upgrade times are valid ONLY for the pilot that is upgrading at that time.

While ATP are sponsors of this board, I would take ANYTHING that they say, OP, with a tremendous grain of salt.
 
Search function is your friend. There are dozens of threads about what you are asking.

Keep in mind ATP is selling a product. To get you to buy they are going to make it sound great. I'm not bashing them, they will get you your ratings.

My advice would be to spend a few days reading all you can on this site. There is more information buried here than you can fathom. There so many ways to progress through a flying career you have no idea (yet).
 
ATP is VERY good at selling their product, Its a sales pitch, They got me hook line and sinker on that one and I bought into it. The training was very fast paced and if you got an instructor that cared you did great, if not then you're on your own. I had both. EVERYONE has had a different experience with ATP, I'd say mine was neutral, I got my ratings but training was lacking.

Its a huge loan, and once you read the fine print that is the price you pay, for whatever reason you don't finish training with them you are still on the hook for all the $$$, If halfway thru the program you decide this isn't for you, you still have to pay, if you struggle thru training and they kick you out, you're still gonna pay. Its a butt load of debt to carry, you WILL make very little money starting out, and paying a huge loan on top of rent, food, gas, ect ect ect is tough, do-able but tough.

Do some shopping, you can do this on your own thru an FBO/ Mom and Pop type flight school. It will cost you 25 to 50% less (maybe even more than 50% less) AND if you commit yourself 100% like what you have to do with ATP you can get all your ratings in just about the same amount of time, maybe a little longer, but for a lot less.
 
I really appreciate the advice, everyone. I will definitely do some more research and look into local FBO and see what they have to offer. ATP said they "guarantee" a CFI position upon completion, is that really the case or is that some BS they are saying in their sales pitch? If I go through a local mom and pop place will it be relativity easy to get a CFI position either there or somewhere else upon completion? Another question, flying planes is a dream of mine and flying helicopters is a whole other level of dreaming. I realize this is a jet career forum so I will post on a more applicable forum as well, but does anyone have any comments in regards to this? I was thinking about getting my multi/CFI fixed wing first, and start teaching and save up some money (hard to do in that job) to get a heli commercial add on. Has anyone else here done this and care to share your experience?
 
Last edited:
Screaming_Emu said:
Wait, we're supposed to be progressing?
Click to expand...
Dunno, man.

I could still be flying a 206. Financially I'm now ahead of those days (it took approximately 2.5 years of airline flying to get there, then surpass it in the third - interesting, no?). But yes, I see your point.

The numbers are in a mood.
 
I'm with the guys above

When i started i spent weeks on this site and some others reading deciding what i wanted to do. I would recommend getting your private first and then decide what your after. Ignore the upgrade times and pay rates. if your in aviation for the money right away find something else.

Best advise I was given was to attempt at all costs to avoid going into debt learning to fly. Yes, it took longer, but I saved a lot of money (and interest) paying as i went with an older GA pilot who just flew for fun out of an FBO. I was fortunate with a great job at the time and decent saving habits and was able to go from 0 hours to- commercial multi engine in just under 15 months. This being said, i had no life at the time. I was flying every possible moment which was mainly at night after work during the week and spent weekends working a 2nd job to keep the funds up. I never added it all up but all said and done id gather i spent around 45K doing it all. But i did walk into my first flying job making peanuts with no debt which helped make ends meet.

As far as first year FO pay being 45K id agree that that's a VERY steep number, 24 is a better guess as well as the 3 year captain thing. Time will dictate that. Also keep in mind there are plenty of other aviation careers outside if the airline world. Just don't chase the dollars. Be smart getting in and life will be easier. I have interviewed a few guys that went through ATP and riddle that couldn't take our starting pay (91) because of their massive loan payments.

Good luck and keep reading!
 
Flying for a living and flying for fun require two different mindsets and commitments. Are you ok with regular medical exams? Are you ok with being checked for your flying ability annually(aka checkrides?). Are you ok with low wages? Are you ok with unstable job security? If you can answer yes to all those, then I would say go for it. If not at least, get your private. I have been flying for 5 years, and if I know then what I know now, I would have taken my time or started earlier. It's a tough business.
 
I regret every minute of my working life prior to flying. But I wish I had found this place before I started my training. So by that measure, you are already ahead of the game. Get a degree if you haven't already. It's pointless to be a heavy equipment operator, which is what we are, but it's used as a metric to thin the heard off applicants, so you'll need that. Don't, under any circumstances, finance your training. You make peanuts to start, and a Ramen noodles diet sucks. It's a marathon, not a sprint. And I'd at any time you think you want to quit, strep back a minute, and re-evaluate your position. I've wanted to do it more than once, but I'm very glad I haven't given up.
 
Something to consider is how your preferences on flying will change once you get your PPL, IR, etc. For me, since I was little, I had a lot of career dreams that changes (including the airline pilot track) By first getting your PPL as suggested, it gives you time to decide if this is right for you and if additional debt is worth it. It is better to have 8k of debt and hate it, than 75k of debt and hate it. A lot of my fellow med students went on to become docs and hate what they do. All say that with 200k+ of debt, they cannot afford to quit and do something else. I personally like to have the option to quit with the least amount of damage done. For you, will the benefits of 75K+ in debt be worth the risk?
 
Redline165 said:
I'm with the guys above

When i started i spent weeks on this site and some others reading deciding what i wanted to do. I would recommend getting your private first and then decide what your after. Ignore the upgrade times and pay rates. if your in aviation for the money right away find something else.

Best advise I was given was to attempt at all costs to avoid going into debt learning to fly. Yes, it took longer, but I saved a lot of money (and interest) paying as i went with an older GA pilot who just flew for fun out of an FBO. I was fortunate with a great job at the time and decent saving habits and was able to go from 0 hours to- commercial multi engine in just under 15 months. This being said, i had no life at the time. I was flying every possible moment which was mainly at night after work during the week and spent weekends working a 2nd job to keep the funds up. I never added it all up but all said and done id gather i spent around 45K doing it all. But i did walk into my first flying job making peanuts with no debt which helped make ends meet.

As far as first year FO pay being 45K id agree that that's a VERY steep number, 24 is a better guess as well as the 3 year captain thing. Time will dictate that. Also keep in mind there are plenty of other aviation careers outside if the airline world. Just don't chase the dollars. Be smart getting in and life will be easier. I have interviewed a few guys that went through ATP and riddle that couldn't take our starting pay (91) because of their massive loan payments.

Good luck and keep reading!
Click to expand...
Thanks for the advice. How did it end up being 45k? Does doing it slower make it any cheaper? Or was that just since you were doing it at a local place? I am not in this for the money but I would like to make a decent living (at least after 3-4 years of living off ramen).

PS: sorry to all for the late responses, being new I need all my posts approved by moderators first.
 
skypilot6 said:
ATP is VERY good at selling their product, Its a sales pitch, They got me hook line and sinker on that one and I bought into it. The training was very fast paced and if you got an instructor that cared you did great, if not then you're on your own. I had both. EVERYONE has had a different experience with ATP, I'd say mine was neutral, I got my ratings but training was lacking.

Its a huge loan, and once you read the fine print that is the price you pay, for whatever reason you don't finish training with them you are still on the hook for all the $$$, If halfway thru the program you decide this isn't for you, you still have to pay, if you struggle thru training and they kick you out, you're still gonna pay. Its a butt load of debt to carry, you WILL make very little money starting out, and paying a huge loan on top of rent, food, gas, ect ect ect is tough, do-able but tough.

Do some shopping, you can do this on your own thru an FBO/ Mom and Pop type flight school. It will cost you 25 to 50% less (maybe even more than 50% less) AND if you commit yourself 100% like what you have to do with ATP you can get all your ratings in just about the same amount of time, maybe a little longer, but for a lot less.
Click to expand...

That's a crap sandwich right there. I did Comair academy in 1993 and it was only 25k all the way through the MEI including housing and utilities. That same training should now cost you 42k. The pay was the same back then!! FO starting pay was around 18k. This career doesn't pay now, don't do it unless you can cash flow it!!
 
Runincolorado said:
Something to consider is how your preferences on flying will change once you get your PPL, IR, etc. For me, since I was little, I had a lot of career dreams that changes (including the airline pilot track) By first getting your PPL as suggested, it gives you time to decide if this is right for you and if additional debt is worth it. It is better to have 8k of debt and hate it, than 75k of debt and hate it. A lot of my fellow med students went on to become docs and hate what they do. All say that with 200k+ of debt, they cannot afford to quit and do something else. I personally like to have the option to quit with the least amount of damage done. For you, will the benefits of 75K+ in debt be worth the risk?
Click to expand...
Hey fellow Coloradoan! I have made up my mind that I am going to take your, and everyone else's advice, in terms of getting my PPL first. After that I guess only time will tell.
 
Any suggestions regarding getting a heli add-on after the fact and going with that career path? Primarily an organization such as flight for life.
 
Trevor Merrill said:
Thanks for the advice. How did it end up being 45k? Does doing it slower make it any cheaper? Or was that just since you were doing it at a local place? I am not in this for the money but I would like to make a decent living (at least after 3-4 years of living off ramen).

PS: sorry to all for the late responses, being new I need all my posts approved by moderators first.
Click to expand...

Honestly I'm not sure how it got to 45k. I just kept flying as much as I could as often as I could. As far as 45k it was 110 bux an hour for a piper warrior and the instructor became a good friend of mine and only charges for flying. No ground fees. (Which adds up) He said he saw that as part of his dues as a pilot teaching younger guys ground school was just fun. As far as flying a little or alot to make cheaper I can tell you when working on a rating fly as often as you can. Especially with IFR a week or 2 out of the seat for me equated to an hour to catch back up.

The local place helped. I paid for an airplane and instructor. No other fees other than check rides and misc little items.

I lived off ramen for 3 years at my current job (better ramen after a while) and am now leaving in 2 weeks for my first 121 job which will have probably another 3 or more years of the same. But as some have said before... It's all about attitude and perspective. I left an almost 6 figure job to fly for • pay. Still have never looked back and love every day of it. Get your private and then make a life decision.
 
I spent about $35k doing it Part 61 through regular schools. Most of my time after private was splitting time/hoodwork with other pilots to save $$ and practice the simulated. So that ranged anywhere from $35-50, in the early stages I was flying 150/152 a lot for $75/hr wet total.

Had to drop most of my other hobbies, but came out with no debt, and that's nice! A lot of Part 61 schools also have places to get loans through, so you could do it quickly and come out cheaper than atp etc.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top