Procedural question

[moxiepilot]

A scenario played out recently, with routing coasting in eastbound from the Atlantic. The remainder of the filed flight plan is:

NORTA DCT ADMOS T959 KOJEC KOJE1R

with landing at Leipzig, EDDP.

Dispatch had expected landing runway 8R and as you can see the KOJE1R is the appropriate STAR for that approach.

ATIS states “expect landing Runway 26L”

So while the Captain is in rest, the PF modifies the flight route in the CDU to the KOJE1V STAR and loads the approach for 26L, JOGGA transition. Captain returns from rest and gets briefed and disagrees with the change, argument resting on lost coms that if NORDO we had filed for the KOJE1R and we had not received an updated clearance.

PF questions Captain, that if the ATIS is stating to expect 26L why we would plan to fly a STAR for 8R, and if NORDO go back to your AVEF pneumonic for routing: assigned, vector, expected, filed. Argument is that it would be expected to fly a STAR for the active runway, 26L.

So, I see the value of arguments on both sides - clearance vs. expectations. What are your thoughts?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

But your clearance was KOJE1R so isn’t that technically assigned? Until ATC modifies otherwise?

 

[Plata]

If comms were lost and the plane was squawking 7600 and ATC saw the plane flying the KOJE1V STAR would they not assume that the crew picked up the ATIS and were following suit with the rest of the traffic? And that the plane was expecting to be cleared for the 26L approach? And if ATC saw the plane flying the KOJE1R STAR wouldn’t they assume that the plane had not picked up ATIS and that things were about to get interesting?

 

[Wardogg]

Isn’t every answer in 121 to contact dispatch? I agree with Plata. Atc would epect you to fly your filed if you started squawking 7600 but if they saw you were on the other star they could assume you had received the atis.

 

[moxiepilot]

But your clearance was KOJE1R so isn’t that technically assigned? Until ATC modifies otherwise?

That was what was filed.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

That was what was filed.

AND cleared for right? When the aircraft got its clearance.

Realistically? Yeah I’d probably squawk 7600 and fly the STAR to the runway in use. But no way would I just change the FMC to the new STAR while the CA was sleeping and then just tell him I did this because of “in case of lost comms.”

I’m a believer in leaving what you are cleared for in the FMC. I agree with the CA above. You aren’t cleared for it. ATC will issue a change as you get closer. Til then, leave the box alone.

 

[MikeD]

Magenta first world problems.

 

[NOGUFFCHET]

Id have to agree with the Capt. on this one.

Why update anything before new routing is provided? Usually the drive here is to get things accomplished while the workload is low, which makes sense. In this case perhaps it would've been a better move to input it into a secondary fltpln (if available) so that it could be proposed to the Capt. as a ready-to-go option upon their return.

Magenta first world problems.

Couldn't agree more

 

[Wardogg]

Magenta first world problems.

Couldn't agree more

I mean, we could always go back to the old days of grey on black meatballs and airline crashes every other week. That seemed like a fun time.

 

[ASpilot2be]

We have a similar issue going to Detroit. We're always filed for a certain arrival, whether it's to the wrong runway. I keep the filed one in until cleared for the new arrival, which is usually in the descent

 

[DPApilot]

Until ATC clears me for something else, unless I’m NORDO, I’m not flying something different. How many times has ATIS reported one thing and LAX does another.

 

[moxiepilot]

Well, that's LAX...lol

 

[CFI A&P]

I’d agree with the captain on this one. You haven’t received a new clearance from either dispatch, CPCDLC, or ATC over radio. Knowing that you’re arrival will change based on ATIS is something you can anticipate or expect, but that isn’t an ATC issued “expect” with regard to AVEF.

 

[awair]

And as the relief crew, “don’t touch anything”, just brief it on return.

A long while back, I had a trip into JFK. With about 8 hours to go, the ATIS was indicating ILS 22L (in the middle of the night) and TAF seemed to agree. We loaded and briefed the VOR 22L, based on previous trips arriving at the same time.

Needless to say, we were both a “bit miffed” to find that the relief crew had reprogrammed ILS 31R, before we returned from rest. This would have been a 30-second change for us to make ourselves, and assured that we both knew what was in the box.

The new ATIS duly announced the VOR 22L, and we had to put it all back in again - which in those days was a non-trivial event to comply with company ”non-ILS approaches”.

 

[dustoff17]

………

PF questions Captain, that if the ATIS is stating to expect 26L why we would plan to fly a STAR for 8R, and if NORDO go back to your AVEF pneumonic for routing: assigned, vector, expected, filed. Argument is that it would be expected to fly a STAR for the active runway, 26L.

So, I see the value of arguments on both sides - clearance vs. expectations. What are your thoughts?

75% of this pneumonic belongs to ATC.
Don’t confuse what YOU expect based on ATIS with what ATC has TOLD you to expect. If they tell you to expect and then you go NORDO, everyone is on the same page.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Exactly.

I’m astounded a pilot would just change a filed and cleared route to another STAR in the FMC without having received any clearance. Worse, then proceed to argue with the CA about it once he comes back from the sleep break.

 

[dustoff17]

Agree!
If the plane wasn’t already ON the STAR, he should have waited until the Capt returned.

 

[ASpilot2be]

Or just build the change in the secondary flight plan.

 

[derg]

[Line Check AIrman Cap]
Program the clearance, plan on clarifying the runway change with the appropriate facility and plan on changing the arrival and runway
[/Line Check Airman Cap]

 

[dustoff17]

[Line Check AIrman Cap]
Program the clearance, plan on clarifying the runway change with the appropriate facility and plan on changing the arrival and runway
[/Line Check Airman Cap]

Sure, AFTER you actually get the clearance THEN this......