Practice approaches in VFR

Maurus

The Great Gazoo
Every once in a while when I call up CLE for some VFR practice approaches I will not get the normal clearances for some approaches. Instead of the standard jargon for an approach clearance, "maintain XXXXft till X cleared for the X approach", we will sometimes get a "vfr approach approved" clearance. What would cause the change in the clearance?
 
Every once in a while when I call up CLE for some VFR practice approaches I will not get the normal clearances for some approaches. Instead of the standard jargon for an approach clearance, "maintain XXXXft till X cleared for the X approach", we will sometimes get a "vfr approach approved" clearance. What would cause the change in the clearance?

Depends on if separation services are provided to vfr aircraft on approaches or not if you get a "cleared for......" than technically we are responsible for separation from other aircraft.

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/ATC/atc0408.html#atc0408.html.6

4-8-11 breaks it down
 
Once cleared for an approach, a VFR aircraft must now be separated from other IFR aircraft by the appropriate minima, with the exception that we can still use 500ft vertical instead of the usual 1000ft (as long as the aircraft isn't a B757 or heavy). This separation applies until the aircraft has completed the approach to land/option. However, if (this is not required but often approved where I work) the VFR aircraft is also authorized to fly the missed approach, then that portion must also be protected.

If, instead, the VFR aircraft is told "practice approach approved, no separation services provided," then IFR separation minima do not apply. At my facility we have an SOP to always provide separation services to VFR aircraft on approaches at our primary airport, as well as several others within our airspace. It is not optional. I imagine other facilities have their own SOPs stipulating which airports they will or will not require separation for.
 
Some TRACONs will use the phraseology:

"Cessna 123, 2 miles from HYMLI, maintain 2,400 until established, cleared ILS 25, no separation services provided, contact tower 118.10"
 
Some TRACONs are doing it wrong :)

It's a conflicting statement. Separation requirements begin at the point the approach clearance becomes effective, going back and saying "no separation services provided" is immediately contradictory to the earlier part of the phraseology. This has got to be confusing to the pilot, and the legality of the controller allowing another aircraft to get closer than separation minima after applying such phraseology is dubious.

4-8-11 PRACTICE APPROACHES

3. Where separation services are not provided to
VFR aircraft practicing instrument approaches, the
controller shall;

(a) Instruct the pilot to maintain VFR.
(b) Advise the pilot that separation services
are not provided.

PHRASEOLOGY-
“(Aircraft identification) MAINTAIN VFR, PRACTICE
APPROACH APPROVED, NO SEPARATION SERVICES
PROVIDED.”
 
Some TRACONs are doing it wrong :)

It's a conflicting statement. Separation requirements begin at the point the approach clearance becomes effective, going back and saying "no separation services provided" is immediately contradictory to the earlier part of the phraseology. This has got to be confusing to the pilot, and the legality of the controller allowing another aircraft to get closer than separation minima after applying such phraseology is dubious.

4-8-11 PRACTICE APPROACHES

3. Where separation services are not provided to
VFR aircraft practicing instrument approaches, the
controller shall;

(a) Instruct the pilot to maintain VFR.
(b) Advise the pilot that separation services
are not provided.

PHRASEOLOGY-
“(Aircraft identification) MAINTAIN VFR, PRACTICE
APPROACH APPROVED, NO SEPARATION SERVICES
PROVIDED.”

+1 it is an either/or

"cleared" & separation together

or

"Practice approach approved" & no separation

can't have both
 
This makes sense. I can see it being used when workload is high as well when the pilot is doing a full approach instead of vectors to final.

Thanks for the replies!
 
This makes sense. I can see it being used when workload is high as well when the pilot is doing a full approach instead of vectors to final.

Thanks for the replies!

actually, it should not be up to the controller situationally dependent, it should be spelled out, as someone stated in the radar facility's SOP which airports do and which don't. Additionally it should be published in a Letter to Airmen from the facility.
 
boondr is correct, it won't be up to the controller. It will be spelled out in local facility directives that certain airports shall receive separation services for VFR practice approaches, and certain airports won't.
 
+1 it is an either/or

"cleared" & separation together

or

"Practice approach approved" & no separation

can't have both

So our local TRACON (they're military) often says "N12345 two miles from FUBAR intersection, maintain VFR until established and cleared for the ILS runway 25 approach."

Is this an IFR clearance?
 
I don't know about calling it an IFR clearance. But, the use of the word cleared would necessitate separating you from other IFR/VFR Practice approach aircraft at the point the clearance becomes effective. It's not an IFR clearance (the aircraft must maintain cloud clearances), and they can still use 500ft vertical separation instead of the 1,000ft required for IFR sep.

The answer is, kinda. The controller will need to ensure separation of an aircraft cleared onto the approach in this manner. "Practice approach approved, no separation services provided" is how it would be said if they were not going to separate you while you flew this approach.

"Maintain VFR until established" seems wierd, since ATC can assign a heading and altitude to VFR aircraft as long as that altitude is consistent with the Minimum IFR altitudes for that area, which it would be if it complied with an instrument approach profile. Unless they think that saying "maintain vfr until established" removes their separation responsibility. And it does not.
 
4-3-21. Practice Instrument Approaches

It is also in the AIM for pilots. I fly daily in an area where all we do is practice approaches. The standard "maintain XXX thousand until established, practice XXX approach approved, maintain vfr, ifr seperation services not provided" is the standard radio call for every single approach we do into any one of a half dozen airports.
 
I don't know about calling it an IFR clearance. But, the use of the word cleared would necessitate separating you from other IFR/VFR Practice approach aircraft at the point the clearance becomes effective. It's not an IFR clearance (the aircraft must maintain cloud clearances), and they can still use 500ft vertical separation instead of the 1,000ft required for IFR sep.

The answer is, kinda. The controller will need to ensure separation of an aircraft cleared onto the approach in this manner. "Practice approach approved, no separation services provided" is how it would be said if they were not going to separate you while you flew this approach.

"Maintain VFR until established" seems wierd, since ATC can assign a heading and altitude to VFR aircraft as long as that altitude is consistent with the Minimum IFR altitudes for that area, which it would be if it complied with an instrument approach profile. Unless they think that saying "maintain vfr until established" removes their separation responsibility. And it does not.

Hmm. I remember one scenario back in instrument training in which they said "Maintain VFR until established" and the CFII came right back with "unable", and they came back immediately with a clearance to the airport. Could be these guys just do it differently. :dunno:
 
Hmm. I remember one scenario back in instrument training in which they said "Maintain VFR until established" and the CFII came right back with "unable", and they came back immediately with a clearance to the airport. Could be these guys just do it differently. :dunno:

were you VFR practicing IFR approaches or were you IFR?



If you were VFR practicing the CFII saying unable to that may have been a really bad thing to say on the radio.
 
4-3-21. Practice Instrument Approaches

It is also in the AIM for pilots. I fly daily in an area where all we do is practice approaches. The standard "maintain XXX thousand until established, practice XXX approach approved, maintain vfr, ifr seperation services not provided" is the standard radio call for every single approach we do into any one of a half dozen airports.

Yeah, it's totally dependent on local procedures that the ATC facility has set. We clear VFR a/c onto approaches at several of our airports everyday, because our SOP specifies we shall separate for those airports. We also have a handful of airports further out from our main two that don't receive such service. At those airports we use the "practice approach approved, no separation services provided." All VFR aircraft requesting practice approaches are advised on initial contact or shortly thereafter to "maintain vfr."
 
were you VFR practicing IFR approaches or were you IFR?



If you were VFR practicing the CFII saying unable to that may have been a really bad thing to say on the radio.

We had departed the field IFR to VFR on top, did our airwork VFR with flight following, and then came back for the approaches. At no time was the word "practice" used in connection with the word "approach", under the "for what it's worth" column.
 
Socal tells us to maintain VFR and no seperation services are provided but then they still provide traffic alerts anyways. I figured ATC just did this in VFR conditions to minimize their workload and liability but it sounds like it's the difference between 1000' and 500' seperation for most airplanes. Is that right?

Some TRACONs are doing it wrong :)

It's a conflicting statement. Separation requirements begin at the point the approach clearance becomes effective, going back and saying "no separation services provided" is immediately contradictory to the earlier part of the phraseology. This has got to be confusing to the pilot, and the legality of the controller allowing another aircraft to get closer than separation minima after applying such phraseology is dubious.

4-8-11 PRACTICE APPROACHES

3. Where separation services are not provided to
VFR aircraft practicing instrument approaches, the
controller shall;

(a) Instruct the pilot to maintain VFR.
(b) Advise the pilot that separation services
are not provided.

PHRASEOLOGY-
“(Aircraft identification) MAINTAIN VFR, PRACTICE
APPROACH APPROVED, NO SEPARATION SERVICES
PROVIDED.”
 
Socal tells us to maintain VFR and no seperation services are provided but then they still provide traffic alerts anyways. I figured ATC just did this in VFR conditions to minimize their workload and liability but it sounds like it's the difference between 1000' and 500' seperation for most airplanes. Is that right?

Traffic is completely separate from separation(pun?). All the advisory is telling you is that we won't be providing the normally required separation on the final between you and other aircraft. Hypothetically we could run an IFR aircraft right over you and be within the legalities of the rule(not within common sense or even in a defend-able position but within the book.) We still need to provide traffic advisories in their normal required situations workload permitting.
 
Socal tells us to maintain VFR and no seperation services are provided but then they still provide traffic alerts anyways. I figured ATC just did this in VFR conditions to minimize their workload and liability but it sounds like it's the difference between 1000' and 500' seperation for most airplanes. Is that right?

Short Explanation: Applicable to my airspace, Class D, E, G only:

IFR-IFR Separation (excluding wake turbulence) - 3 miles laterally or 1000ft vertically

VFR-VFR or VFR-IFR Separation: None.

VFR Practice Approach - IFR Separation (excluding Wake Turb) - 3 miles laterally or 500ft vertically


Loooong explanation:

When you are VFR and cleared onto a practice approach, you've just completely changed how the controller views your flight. Within many classes of airspace, there is no separation minima for VFR aircraft. At my airport, we operate 2 Class D surface areas surrounded by class E and class G airspace. In this environment, we need only provide traffic advisories to VFR aircraft. They are not required to be kept a certain number of miles away from other VFR or IFR aircraft. As Boondr alluded to above, there is a moral responsibility to keep you from hitting someone, but there is no black and white minimum distance we must separate you by.

Until we clear you onto an approach. Then our manual states we shall provide normal IFR separation for your flight between you and other IFR aircraft, with the caveat that we can use 500ft vertical separation instead of 1000ft (the normal required vertical separation for IFR-IFR). This means you get 3 miles lateral separation from other IFR aircraft. Or 5 miles if following a heavy/B757 and you're a small aircraft like a cessna. The separation requirements for wake turbulence on final are also now applicable. Your small aircraft must be 6 miles behind an arriving Heavy by the time it crosses the threshold of the runway. This extra separation service continues until you land/go around, UNLESS we approve the approach's published missed procedure. Then the book says we shall protect your flight for the duration of you flying the published missed as well. If the published missed is not approved (vfr aircraft are not automatically authorized to fly the published missed, ifr aircraft are) then your flight returns to normal VFR status once you go missed. No more 3 miles, no more 500ft vertical etc, just business as usual.

As you can see, there is suddenly a lot more separation work required for your VFR flight once you're cleared onto an approach. As I mentioned in a previous post, the determination to clear you onto an approach or advise you "no separation services provided" is not up to the controller. It's established in local procedures and based on airport (maybe other factors). Anything can be accomplished with enough paperwork/coordination, so some facilities may do things differently, but it must be spelled out somewhere. If the controller is too busy, they can deny the practice approach, but I don't think it'd be ok for a controller to tell you "practice approach approved, no separation services provided" when making an approach to an airport that normally gives radar separation to VFR practice approaches. They can either clear you, or say unable.

To get further into the nitty gritty of FAA manuals, the 7210.3 governs the way ATC facilities are run. It states:

10-4-5. PRACTICE INSTRUMENT
APPROACHES

a. VFR aircraft practicing instrument approaches
at the approach control's primary airport shall be
provided IFR separation
in accordance with FAAO
2/11/10 JO 7210.3W
Services 10-4-3
JO7110.65, Air Traffic Control, Chapter 4, Section
8, Approach Clearance Procedures.

NOTE
The
primary airport is the airport from which approach
control service is provided, except for remoted facilities
where the facility air traffic manager will designate the
primary report.

b. IFR separation to VFR aircraft in accordance
with FAAO JO 7110.65, Chapter 4, Section 8,
Approach Clearance Procedures, shall be provided to
all secondary airports under the approach control's
jurisdiction to the extent possible within existing
resources.
Where separation service is provided to an
airport with an AFSS/FSS that provides LAA, or a
nonapproach control tower, provisions for handling
such aircraft, including aircraft being provided DF
service, shall be included in a LOA.

c. Where standard separation is not provided to
VFR aircraft conducting practice approaches,
instruct the aircraft to maintain VFR and provide
traffic information.

d. At airports where the tower does not provide
approach control service, handle practice instrument
approaches in accordance with a LOA between the
tower and the facility providing approach control
service.

e. Facilities shall issue a letter to airmen advising
the users of those airports where standard separation
is provided for VFR aircraft conducting practice
instrument approaches. The letter should specify
which facility will handle the aircraft practicing
instrument approaches and include the appropriate
frequencies.



Little Summary to my big stupid post:

Whether you, as a VFR pilot practicing an instrument approach, will receive IFR separation on that approach, or not, is dependent on local directives. Regardless, a Letter to Airmen shall exist explaining which airports will receive separation, and which ones will not. Therefore, a controller should not arbitrarily clear or not-clear VFR aircraft onto approaches. It's all spelled out for him/her. At all times, VFR aircraft on, or off, an approach shall adhere to visibility/cloud clearance requirements. Clearance onto an approach while VFR is NOT an IFR clearance. It's merely a temporary condition of the VFR flight where IFR separation is provided.

I hope this answers more questions than it raises!
 
Whether you, as a VFR pilot practicing an instrument approach, will receive IFR separation on that approach, or not, is dependent on local directives. Regardless, a Letter to Airmen shall exist explaining which airports will receive separation, and which ones will not. Therefore, a controller should not arbitrarily clear or not-clear VFR aircraft onto approaches. It's all spelled out for him/her. At all times, VFR aircraft on, or off, an approach shall adhere to visibility/cloud clearance requirements. Clearance onto an approach while VFR is NOT an IFR clearance. It's merely a temporary condition of the VFR flight where IFR separation is provided.

I hope this answers more questions than it raises!

Sweet, thanks :clap:
 
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