PPL oral from hell...

T

tgc

New Member
So, I got a shiny pink-slip today for my PPL. It was quite interesting. The DE was about 20 minutes late. He seemed like a pretty nice guy... we started on the oral portion of the PTS.

It took about 15 minutes to complete I.a and I.b (certificates and documents; airworthiness requirements). We got to weather (I.c) and all was going well for about the first 5-10 minutes. We made it through all the standard charts (surface analysis, radar summary, winds & temp aloft, sig weather prog, convective outlook) and we made it through METAR and TAFs. At this point the examiner asked me to name and describe the stages of a thunderstorm. I was able to describe all three stages, but I was only able to name the last two stages (mature and dissipating)... The DE became a little concerned with the fact that I couldn't name the first stage (even though I correctly described it). He decided to carry on with the 'weather' questions for another hour and thirty minutes. I did alright (probably about 50%), which was amazing considering a lot of the charts he was showing me resembled nothing I had learned about from my Jeppesen book, instructor, or had ever seen at my local FSS (and I can't find similar charts on aviationweather.com or aopa.com). Also, he asked numerous questions that I can't find any reference to in the PPL PTS. Such as: 'How, exactly, is hail formed in a thunderstorm', and 'Refer to this chart and show me the best route to take between San Francisco and New York to obtain the most tail wind'. The only thing I could think to do is try to point out areas of low pressure causing wind towards areas of high pressure, since the chart didn't have winds aloft information (apparently that was wrong).

Also, he kept telling me: 'I don't expect you to know this stuff verbatim' but the one time I asked if I could look it up in the FAR/AIM he said: 'I run a closed book exam'.

At the end of the 1:40 minute weather oral, he said he was failing me. I asked if we would still be able to complete the other sections of the oral portion of the PTS, and he replied 'all section past weather require a basic understanding of weather, which you obviously do not have ... so we can't continue any further'. Which kind of stinks, since I did all the work planning the 250nm cross country that he asked for and he wouldn't even look at it (including buying another terminal chart for an area I will never really fly to). The kicker of it all is that he took the full payment from me and told me a retest would be full price.

What a waste of an afternoon... My re-test will definitely be with a different examiner.

The funny part, is my CFI was sitting there the whole time. After we left, he said, 'it is a good thing I already have my ATP, because I would have failed that weather exam'.
 
The charts he had you look at were probably the ones from the 'Aviation Weather Services' FAA publication, which although you will never see in real life, you really should know for the checkride. However, I don't understand how aerodynamics, weight & ballance, sectional chart symblos, FARs, etc, require a basic understanding of weather, and if he was to take full payment he really should have allowed you to continue on those areas. Sounds like kind of a jerk. Look over the PTS in the weather section, and see if there was anything he expected you to know that is not in there. If it was as bad as you say, you might have a valid complaint to make to the FSDO. At the very least you'll see exactly what it is you are required to know and can use to study for your re-check.

Good luck, and don't beat yourself up too much about it.
 
"Closed-book exam" for a private ride...what an ass. Do yourself a favor and take your re-do with a different DE (this WAS with a DE, right? I'd half expect that out of a FSDO inspector, which is why only gluttons for punishment go to them for checkrides). The only way you can fight those types is to hit 'em in the wallet by taking your business elsewhere.
 
Very unfair. I would look at bucking up the extra cost and go with a different DPE. That guy obviously has it in for you. And you're right, you can appeal to your designated FSDO. You're expect to know what is in the PTS and that is only what they're supposed to test on.

It's sad occasionally you'll find a DPE who will fail you just to get the extra re-test fee...pretty sick. The DPEs here in Florida are 300/ride....150 re-test....they do 10-15 rides a week....they make more than enough.

Why didn't your instructor step in and say something? Also...why was he there in the oral with you?
 
Totally agree with Aloft. The DE should let you use references during the oral (for your PPL) that you are likely to have in the plane with you. It's a pretty good bet you'll have a FAR/AIM in the plane with you. IMO, I'd take the pink slip and go with another DE. The guy was unfair for the closed book thing, and I don't think he deserves your money for the re-test.
 
The DE offered to let my instructor sit in, as long as he was behind me. My instructor had never sent anyone to this DE before, so he wanted to see how it went. When we left, he said he would never send anyone his way again.

I am definitly going to another DE the next time, especially since this guy wanted the full price for a retest.
 
Yeah, full price for a retest = gouging IMO. For example, if all an applicant messed up on was landings, their playing $200-400 for like a 15 minute flight. That's insane. Most DEs I know charge half price for a retest. Good of your instructor to get a feel of a new DE, though. I gave my instructor the gouge on my oral and flight since I was the first ME student he'd sent with this DE.
 
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At the end of the 1:40 minute weather oral

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That's just crazy, definately go to somebody else next time.

There is no reason for any oral to last more than 2:30 total (other than CFI initial). Any longer and fatigue starts affecting you.

Hitting you on T-storms when could corectly describe their stages, and only forgot one name is BS too.
 
Yeah, just thought about that. At the PPL level the only thing you should know about t-storms is how to know where they are and to stay away from them. The different stages sounds more like instrument or commercial stuff.
 
The different stages are actually listed in the PP Oral Guide... I probably would not have been so upset about getting the 3rd degree on weather if the DE had at least offered to continue the oral (and perhaps the flying portion)... That way my pink slip would only list 1c for retest instead of 1c-1j & 2-12 ... All I get to skip next time is airworthiness and certs & docs, yeeeaaaahhhh
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Thanks for the feedback guys, I was starting to think that maybe I just didn't know enough about weather.

On the plus side, I did just read a nice article about MCCs (mesoscale convective complex). Interesting stuff.
 
The DPE I took my PVT ride with only asked 1 SINGLE question out of ASA's PPL Oral Exam Guide...it was..."What certficates need to be onboard...bla bla..."

Therefore, I try not to say to myself "Ok, you've studied this guide, then you are all set" because I know I'll get burned. Anyways...good luck on the retake...I would rather see someone fail in the flight portion rather than pay $300 to get to talk for 2 hours....about weather.
 
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That DE should be introduced to MikeD...

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And he'd recieve one no-frills, single-upgrade, gold-member-status ASS kicking! Again, jerk DPEs and examiners that fail to have the big picture and are more interested in busting someone than setting them up for success.

Yet another time I'd love to use the AIM book to slap the crap out of someone with.........
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Wow did I have it easy?? My oral was about 40 min and not even that much longer for my instrument rating. Kinda crazy to have much for than a few min of weather oral for your PPL.
 
Which DE did you go with? I had Azma for my PPL (wouldn't recommend that checkride to Adolph Hitler, much less people I want to see pass) and Balesteri (sp?) for my IR. The plan was to go with Radski for my CMEL, but Hurricane Charley scrapped that one.
 
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Wow did I have it easy?? My oral was about 40 min

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Yes, you did!
As Napoleon would say: "Lucky!"
 
Both orals for my private and instrument rides (same DE) lasted less than 45 minutes. It felt more like a BS session with the DE than an oral, which made for a very relaxed atmosphere. Of course I didn't know everything, but you're not supposed to either. No one can know everything.

The flight porition was about 45 minutes for my private, maybe an hour for the instrument? He said to me after my private ride that examiners can tell if an application will pass or fail within about 20 minutes. It's obvious whether they have their $%(* together or not.
 
Sweet, Balisteri is a good DE. He's one of those guys that will show you stuff on the checkride that will make you a better pilot in the long run.
 
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