Power On Stalls

[rd757]

I just did my multi add-on not too long ago and I did it with the gear down. IIRC, I clarified it with the DPE which way he wanted to see it before beginning the maneuver and he responded that he wanted it with the gear down.

 

[Roger, Roger]

I think that's the ATP PTS. Commercial, I believe requires a buffet, but I don't have any PTS books handy. That said, I was trained to recover at the stall horn, but on the check rides the examiners said to wait for the buffet. The only time I got to recover at the stall horn was on the Vmc Demo.

I believe commercial is first sign of the stall.

 

[Corporate Pilot]

I'm taking my CMEL on the 25th and FWIW the checklist for the Seneca that I rent reads:

Departure/Power On Stalls
13" MP
Gear and Flaps Up
Props High
Blah Blah Blah

So this is how I plan to do them

I do not remember about the gear but 13”MP does not sound like a departure stall to me.

 

[Roger, Roger]

I do not remember about the gear but 13”MP does not sound like a departure stall to me.

I think that is just to get the airplane down to a typical climb speed from cruise... Bring the power back, then once you're at climb speed, say, 100 knots, pitch up while adding climb power, and hold pitch or keep increasing pitch until you get first indication of a stall. Of course there is more than one way to skin a cat but that is a common way to set up the maneuver.

 

[Corporate Pilot]

I think that is just to get the airplane down to a typical climb speed from cruise... Bring the power back, then once you're at climb speed, say, 100 knots, pitch up while adding climb power, and hold pitch or keep increasing pitch until you get first indication of a stall. Of course there is more than one way to skin a cat but that is a common way to set up the maneuver.

I go to school Monday so I will relearn all of this.

 

[spbrian]

Sorry, but you are wrong from a DPE's standpoint. You, the applicant andrequired to know and adhere to the PTS's that are applicable for thatcheckride. If you do not know the standards that you are to perform to, it isnot the DPE's fault, or even the instructors. This is readily availableinformation.

Now from a realistic standpoint, the idea with the gear down as said, is toprevent very high pitch angles which could make stall recovery a problem, ifyou have the gear down it's more drag, it also let's you produce more powermaking it a much more realistic experience. Also it allows you to go throughthe clean up steps that you would go through if you accidentally did enter astall close to the ground after departure.

There's two flavors. A takeoff stall and a departure stall. Either is correct but it should have been part of the preflight briefing so that neither of you would be confused on what was going to happen.

 

[subpilot]

I am wrong?

 

[Roger, Roger]

Sorry, but you are wrong from a DPE's standpoint. You, the applicant andrequired to know and adhere to the PTS's that are applicable for thatcheckride. If you do not know the standards that you are to perform to, it isnot the DPE's fault, or even the instructors. This is readily availableinformation.

Now from a realistic standpoint, the idea with the gear down as said, is toprevent very high pitch angles which could make stall recovery a problem, ifyou have the gear down it's more drag, it also let's you produce more powermaking it a much more realistic experience. Also it allows you to go throughthe clean up steps that you would go through if you accidentally did enter astall close to the ground after departure.

Um...no.
The PTS clearly states that you can either do the takeoff configuration or the departure configuration. That is because those are the 2 most likely scenarios in which one might find oneself entering a stall at a high power setting (power-on stall). Since the PTS gives the examiner the option of which configuration he wants to see, it is his responsibility to brief the applicant on what to do. The only thing you're right about is that the applicant should know the PTS well enough to ask the examiner which configuration he wou would like to see, if the examiner does not explicitly state it.

 

[flyboy6585]

The whole concept of gear down power on stall is to simulate a takeoff where you over-rotate, stall, then recover. The gear up power on stall simulates a climb stall.

With private pilot stalls the PTS says to recover AFTER the stall occurs, the commercial PTS says to recover AS the stall occurs. The PTS does not allow a pilot to recover at the first sign of the stall (ie. horn or buffet) but rather require that the stall actually has occured. The only difference in the Private and Comm PTS is that the Commercial applicants are expected to be recovering as the stall occurs.

People often try to apply the standards for the Vmc Demo to stalls for the Demo you can, and are expected to, recover at the first SIGN of a stall (the horn, buffet, or actual stall).

For the takeoff stall the typical procedure is:
Maintain altitude
1. Reduce power to slow from cruise
2. Lower the gear
3. Lower takeoff flaps (if applicable)
4. Apply full power (or in the case of high powered aircraft at least 65%IIRC)
Pitch up to an attitude that will stall the aircraft
As the stall occurs
5. Max power
6. Positive rate gear up
7. Flaps up (often speed or altitude restricted
8. Climb checklist
7.

 

[elmetal]

With private pilot stalls the PTS says to recover AFTER the stall occurs, the commercial PTS says to recover AS the stall occurs.

I disagree wholeheartedly.

In commercial you have to recover at the first sign of an imminent stall (aka before it happens)

I can fly with a buffet all day and not stall, but that is ALL you need to show the DPE. They want to see that you know when a stall is coming.

 

[flyboy6585]

I disagree wholeheartedly.

In commercial you have to recover at the first sign of an imminent stall (aka before it happens)

I can fly with a buffet all day and not stall, but that is ALL you need to show the DPE. They want to see that you know when a stall is coming.

Sorry to sound rude, but it really doesn't matter what you think. What matters is what the PTS says the applicant must do.

B. TASK: POWER-OFF STALLS

(AMEL and AMES)​

REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, AC 61-67; POH/AFM.​

Objective. ​

To determine that the applicant:

1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to power-off stalls.

2. Selects an entry altitude that allows the task to be completed no lower than 3,000 feet (460 meters) AGL.

3. Establishes a stabilized descent in the approach or landing configuration, as specified by the examiner.
4. Transitions smoothly from the approach or landing attitude to a pitch attitude that will induce a stall.
5. Maintains a specified heading ​

​

±10°, in straight flight; maintains a specified angle of bank, not to exceed 20°, ±5°, in turning flight while inducing the stall.​

6. Recognizes and recovers promptly as the stall occurs by simultaneously reducing the angle of attack, increasing power to maximum allowable, and leveling the wings to return to a straightand-level flight attitude with a minimum loss of altitude appropriate for the airplane.

7. Retracts the flaps to the recommended setting, retracts thelanding gear, if retractable, after a positive rate of climb is established.
8. Accelerates to V​

​

X or VY speed before the final flap retraction; returns to the altitude, heading, and airspeed specified by the examiner.​

​

C. TASK: POWER-ON STALLS ​

(AMEL and AMES)

REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, AC 61-67; POH/AFM.​

NOTE: In some high performance airplanes, the power setting may have to be reduced below the practical test standards guideline power setting to prevent excessively high pitch attitudes (greater than 30° nose up).​

Objective. ​

To determine that the applicant:

1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to power-on stalls.

2. Selects an entry altitude that allows the task to be completed no lower than 3,000 feet (920 meters) AGL.

3. Establishes the takeoff or departure configuration. Sets power to no less than 65 percent available power.
4. Transitions smoothly from the takeoff or departure attitude to a pitch attitude that will induce a stall.
5. Maintains a specified heading ​

​

±5°, in straight flight; maintains a specified angle of bank, not to exceed a 20°, ±10° in turning flight, while inducing the stall.​

6. Recognizes and recovers promptly as the stall occurs by simultaneously reducing the angle of attack, increasing power to maximum allowable, and leveling the wings to return to a straightand-level flight attitude, with a minimum loss of altitude appropriate for the airplane.

7. Retracts flaps to the recommended setting, retracts the landing gear if retractable, after a positive rate of climb is established.
8. Accelerates to V​

​

X or VY speed before the final flap retraction; returns to the altitude, heading, and airspeed specified by the examiner. ​

Emphasis mine

I don't see how you can interpret the PTS to mean the buffet nor the horn, because those are indications of an impending stall, not an occuring stall. A DPE should not be asking a applicant of any rating to demonstrate more or less than what the PTS says should be demonstrated unless the POH/AFM has a specific limitation against such a manuever. Had the FAA desired commercial applicants to recover at first indication they would have spelled that out as the do in the ATP PTS

B. TASK: APPROACHES TO STALLS​

REFERENCES: 14 CFR part 61; FAA-H-8083-3; FSB Report;​

POH/AFM.

THREE approaches to stall are required, as follows (unless otherwise specified by the FSB Report):
1. One in the takeoff configuration (except where the airplane uses only zero-flap takeoff configuration) or approach (partial) flap configuration.
2. One in a clean cruise configuration.
3. One in a landing configuration (landing gear and landing flaps set).
​

​

CAUTION: Avoid deep stalls which are termed as “virtually unrecoverable” in airplanes, and “tip stalls” in swept wing airplanes. One of these approaches to a stall must be accomplished while in a turn using a bank angle of 15 to 30°.​

Objective.
To determine that the applicant:​

1. In actual or simulated instrument conditions exhibits satisfactory knowledge of the factors, which influence stall characteristics, including the use of various drag configurations, power settings, pitch attitudes, weights, and bank angles. Also, exhibits adequate knowledge of the proper procedure for resuming normal flight.

2. Selects an entry altitude that is in accordance with the AFM or POH, but in no case lower than an altitude that will allow recovery to be safely completed at a minimum of 3,000 feet AGL. When accomplished in an FTD or flight simulator, the entry altitude should be consistent with expected operational environment for the stall configuration.

3. Observes the area is clear of other aircraft prior to accomplishing an approach to a stall.
4. While maintaining altitude, slowly establishes the pitch attitude (using trim or elevator/stabilizer), bank angle, and power setting that will induce a stall.
5. Announces the first indication of an impending stall (such as buffeting, stick shaker, decay of control effectiveness, and any other cues related to the specific airplane design characteristics) and initiates recovery (using maximum power or as directed by the examiner).
6. Recovers to a reference airspeed, altitude and heading with minimal loss of altitude, airspeed, and heading deviation.
7. Demonstrates smooth, positive control during entry, approach to a stall, and recovery. ​

​

So based on the difference in the way that the commercial and atp PTS's are written a commercial applicant has to actually stall the aircraft, and be recovering as that occurs.​

​

 

[elmetal]

Sorry to sound rude, but it really doesn't matter what you think. What matters is what the PTS says the applicant must do.


Emphasis mine

I don't see how you can interpret the PTS to mean the buffet nor the horn, because those are indications of an impending stall, not an occuring stall. A DPE should not be asking a applicant of any rating to demonstrate more or less than what the PTS says should be demonstrated unless the POH/AFM has a specific limitation against such a manuever. Had the FAA desired commercial applicants to recover at first indication they would have spelled that out as the do in the ATP PTS

So based on the difference in the way that the commercial and atp PTS's are written a commercial applicant has to actually stall the aircraft, and be recovering as that occurs.​

[/LEFT]

I've talked to 5 different DPEs from the Orlando and Miami FSDO about this. I don't give a hoot what the PTS says, you jump through the hoop for the ok from the DPE

 

[flyboy6585]

I've talked to 5 different DPEs from the Orlando and Miami FSDO about this. I don't give a hoot what the PTS says, you jump through the hoop for the ok from the DPE

I don't even know how to respond to this. If you don't care what the PTS says and neither do the examiners and FSDO that you use then how does one know what to prepare for? The FSDO and the DPEs need to be educated on what the PTS means. It it is the PRACTICAL TEST STANDARDS! In other words an applicant for a rating who is taking a practical test can be expected to perform to the standards and descriptions set forth in the PTS which references the PHAK, FAR/AIM, ACs, etc. If we let FSDOs, DPEs, and instructors edit the PTS at their will to mean what they want it to how does one argue when an applicant fails because the DPE decided that a private pilot must land exactly on the point during a short field landing instead of the +200/-0 the standards prescribe?

Everything that is done on the test needs to come from the PTS! There are some areas intentially left open, these are called special emphasis areas, and the DPE has discretion on deciding what consistutes a failure of one of these areas.

What if an examiner decides willy nilly to have your private pilot candidate shoot an ILS during your student's ride when the PTS only calls for S&L, climbs, turns, and descents? Are you ok with that? I have taken a few check pilots (worked for a 141) to bat over failures involving things not in the PTS and successfully one them. One must remember that crap flows down hill and if we don't keep our higher powers in line and challenge them when they do things wrong then we deserve the bath of poo that will cover us.