Poor Sun Country

Silly pilots?

Those guys asked for a raise, to a rate which was still under what they should be earning and the CEO still said nope. They are paid pretty poorly for the equipment they operate. A concession is at least they are treated well otherwise. (according to my few pals that fly for them)
 
Seggy said:
Then management will find out it is difficult to stay in business if they can't pay fair market wages.
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You sound like my fellow Lufthansa pilots, or worse, those at Air Berlin.

When a company is not making money, how are for them to increase pay and stay in business? I am not anti-pilot at all but I do not understand this thinking method. Many of my coworkers think that many of these organisations are charities but instead they are for money making.
 
Koenigsberger_Katjase said:
You sound like my fellow Lufthansa pilots, or worse, those at Air Berlin.

When a company is not making money, how are for them to increase pay and stay in business? I am not anti-pilot at all but I do not understand this thinking method. Many of my coworkers think that many of these organisations are charities but instead they are for money making.
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If you can't afford to properly pay your employees then you shouldn't be in business. The pilots are professionals as well and deserve to be paid a fair market wage. They shouldn't be forced to volunteer their skill set and their time at pennies on the dollar just because management can't figure out how to be profitable. It's a two-way street.
 
Koenigsberger_Katjase said:
You sound like my fellow Lufthansa pilots, or worse, those at Air Berlin.

When a company is not making money, how are for them to increase pay and stay in business? I am not anti-pilot at all but I do not understand this thinking method. Many of my coworkers think that many of these organisations are charities but instead they are for money making.
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I do believe Sun Country is profitable, actually. But the increase in fares would be pretty small to offset an increase to atleast marginally competitive wages.

That would be my advice to someone who is losing money selling a product, which is to say increase the price of the product or find some other cost saving measure. The Sun Country pilots weren't asking for the world here, they aren't even asking for that much. As a professional aviator, if an airline/LCC really truly cannot afford to pay atleast somewhat marginal wages then it is really in my best interest that they do go out of business. There is some flexibility for start-up airlines, it is customary (some would say anyway) to accept perhaps lower than average wages during the initial period ... however, if an airline seeks to make this the standard practice on the grounds that they'll go out of business otherwise, then if they are actually telling the truth their business model is so fragile they are going to go out of business anyway so may as well get it over with so I can start building seniority somewhere else.

Sometimes airlines remind me of the old wag: 'We lose money on every sale, but we make it up on volume!'
 
Ozelot said:
Silly pilots?

Those guys asked for a raise, to a rate which was still under what they should be earning and the CEO still said nope. They are paid pretty poorly for the equipment they operate. A concession is at least they are treated well otherwise. (according to my few pals that fly for them)
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Your sarcasm detector must be MEL'd.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
But the increase in fares would be pretty small to offset an increase to atleast marginally competitive wages.
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Sorry, but that's not how business works.

As a professional aviator, if an airline/LCC really truly cannot afford to pay atleast somewhat marginal wages then it is really in my best interest that they do go out of business.
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I don't necessarily disagree with that, but the reality is that the NMB isn't interested in driving companies out of business, so they aren't going to let a labor group strike if that would be the result. If you can't demonstrate that the company can afford your demands without changing their business model, then the NMB isn't going to release you, ever.
 
So the next time fuel prices spike, will the board threaten to stop buying the stuff?
 
Good grief, I just read the Wikipedia page on the company. I know there is drama and some silliness at any company, but it looks like this one has been an almost constant stream of it.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
I do believe Sun Country is profitable, actually. But the increase in fares would be pretty small to offset an increase to atleast marginally competitive wages.

That would be my advice to someone who is losing money selling a product, which is to say increase the price of the product or find some other cost saving measure. The Sun Country pilots weren't asking for the world here, they aren't even asking for that much. As a professional aviator, if an airline/LCC really truly cannot afford to pay atleast somewhat marginal wages then it is really in my best interest that they do go out of business. There is some flexibility for start-up airlines, it is customary (some would say anyway) to accept perhaps lower than average wages during the initial period ... however, if an airline seeks to make this the standard practice on the grounds that they'll go out of business otherwise, then if they are actually telling the truth their business model is so fragile they are going to go out of business anyway so may as well get it over with so I can start building seniority somewhere else.

Sometimes airlines remind me of the old wag: 'We lose money on every sale, but we make it up on volume!'
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Actually, the small increase in fares could be exactly what puts you out of business. I'd bet the house Sun Country might have a small loyalty following, and then after that, their clientele is the price sensitive consumer. Every dollar you add to your base fare, the closer you inch to DAL's fares in MSP, at which point your customers will defect.

I agree with the premise that the cost saving measures don't have to come out of the pilots - they deserve fair, market wages. Unfortunately, the cost has to come from somewhere, and the likely next choice is the consumer - SY could increase utilization (start flying more redeyes) to try to gain efficiency out of the fleet, they can add more seats to the fleet to again gain efficiency, etc.. Something has to give.

If you were an Indigo type PE shop, looking to make a play on an airline, I tend to think this is your play. Access to an operating certificate, gate space and real estate in MSP, a fleet of 21 737's, and a possibly motivated seller.
 
Finny said:
If you can't afford to properly pay your employees then you shouldn't be in business. The pilots are professionals as well and deserve to be paid a fair market wage. They shouldn't be forced to volunteer their skill set and their time at pennies on the dollar just because management can't figure out how to be profitable. It's a two-way street.
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But I do not think that is the point of business. The point of business is to make money. The employees are just there because they are needed to make the money. If any business could get rid of employees it would do so, agree? Furthermore, isn't having low employee wages one way that management has figured out a way to be profitable?

I think a lot of pilots in the US think that all pilots on an aircraft type should be paid the same "because of same skills". In Europe, we realize that pilots at Ryanair work at a carrier that cannot generate as much revenue as Lufthansa, so it is improper for the pilots to be compensated as if they are the same. Is this not how it should be in the US too? This Sun Country cannot make the money that American Airlines can, so should pilots be paid as if they are?

SpiraMirabilis said:
I do believe Sun Country is profitable, actually. But the increase in fares would be pretty small to offset an increase to atleast marginally competitive wages.

That would be my advice to someone who is losing money selling a product, which is to say increase the price of the product or find some other cost saving measure. The Sun Country pilots weren't asking for the world here, they aren't even asking for that much.
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But this is in contrary to basic economics. As price goes up, demand will decrease. Especially if a competitor does not change their prices like the other poster said.

As a professional aviator, if an airline/LCC really truly cannot afford to pay atleast somewhat marginal wages then it is really in my best interest that they do go out of business.
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That is also in contrary to basic economics. As supply of pilots on the open market increases, wages will decrease. You want as many employed pilots as possible, for then companies will require higher wages to recruit the limited job seekers.

There is some flexibility for start-up airlines, it is customary (some would say anyway) to accept perhaps lower than average wages during the initial period ... however, if an airline seeks to make this the standard practice on the grounds that they'll go out of business otherwise, then if they are actually telling the truth their business model is so fragile they are going to go out of business anyway so may as well get it over with so I can start building seniority somewhere else.
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But having lower costs means offering lower fares. Ryanair as I said above does this. That's their business model. Would you say that they are so fragile? They are the largest airline in Europe.

Sometimes airlines remind me of the old wag: 'We lose money on every sale, but we make it up on volume!'
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Ha ha this I have not once heard!
 
To be fair, Sun Country pilots aren't looking to be paid AA wages.

Sun Country management has a thin line they must walk on. They can't afford to increase costs by a significant amount, but having an unproductive and angry pilot group is going to cost them. I wish the Sun Country pilots the best.
 
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