PNCL Files Chapter 11

[HVYMETALDRVR]

This topic and the contents of that letter need to be on at 7pm every day this week on CNN. I know that will never happen, but it would be nice...

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

So... use and effective date and class dates that are beyond the drawdown dates of the airframes and don't try and do everything at once.

Their inefficiency is going to end up hurting the pilot group in the long run.

I'd bet they are trying to offload the pilots with the planes/entire op to somebody. The only way they can send them with the planes, is if they have finished training.

That or they will move to furlough out of order, and they're hoping to get as many pilots on the 9l ticket as possible.

I agree it makes no sense to run expensive pilot training unless there is a need/reason. Too bad we don't know what it is yet. Like i said in the other thread though... with twins on the way, i'm already stepping out /(would be even if we weren't in CH.11) away from home just won't work with a working wife and twins. (esp. when she makes more than me) - just got back from car shopping... and, there are not a lot of options that deal well with 3 kids, two being infants. The new explorer has options for captains chairs second row, as does th Arcadia. Wife refuses to drive a mini van (thank god). It's going to be an expensive supprise for su
re!-

Like wise, if i've flown with you, or know you, I'm happy to pass resume's along to the folks i've made connections with, and will do what i can to help those out who get furloughed (if they do)

Good luck to those of you

 

[SurferLucas]

Which JC'er done it?

Question...our procedures have us go to Fuel Off on an Engine Shutdown on Ground and/or Emergency Evac, and I guess I've never thought about it, but since we go straight to Fuel Off on the Condition Levers, would they never make it to feather before they stop?

Good job whomever it was, looks like an on the centerline landing.

 

[dasleben]

This topic and the contents of that letter need to be on at 7pm every day this week on CNN. I know that will never happen, but it would be nice...

Nobody cares how much we get paid, and Congress can't and shouldn't be involved in legislating pilot pay. The general public will say "Wow, that's not right!" and go right back to googling the latest happenings of Miley Cyrus (that's a thing, right?). It's a market; Pinnacle has had no problems filling classes leading up to the bankruptcy, so why pay you more? We're all guilty of showing up to jobs with crappy wages, and those wages won't change until we do something about it. Trying to force change through actions of the general public or Congress won't do a thing.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Which JC'er done it?

Question...our procedures have us go to Fuel Off on an Engine Shutdown on Ground and/or Emergency Evac, and I guess I've never thought about it, but since we go straight to Fuel Off on the Condition Levers, would they never make it to feather before they stop?

Good job whomever it was, looks like an on the centerline landing.

During right seat qual I may have accidentally shut down #1 while pulling into the gate. It "likely" didn't fully feather either. Stupid bumpy pavement.

 

[SurferLucas]

During right seat qual I may have accidentally shut down #1 while pulling into the gate. It "likely" didn't fully feather either. Stupid bumpy pavement.

Meh, it happens...just like reaching up to start turning off pumps on the parking flow, accidently hitting the Power Levers with ones elbow and the #2 engine going to 55% TRQ.

Glad to know that's the probably the reason why.

 

[mooneyguy]

I'd like to point out, all of them are Democrats. Know who your friends are, guys, and vote appropriately.

I would agree, know who your friends are! Don't take someone else's word for it. Not trying to start a political pssing match with you, I have been in and around unions for more then 20 years. Been a shop steward many times. I believe the union can be a great thing, but I cannot side with them for pushing the democrats. They might talk the talk, but talk (and letters) is cheap!

 

[dasleben]

I believe the union can be a great thing, but I cannot side with them for pushing the democrats. They might talk the talk, but talk (and letters) is cheap!

In agreement here. Most pilots I fly with seem to slant to the conservative side; if my EXCO (Teamsters version of an MEC) ever outright told me to vote democrat, I would be livid. My dues money doesn't go to supporting any particular party, and not to mention, it's not their place.

 

[N519AT]

Meh, it happens...just like reaching up to start turning off pumps on the parking flow, accidently hitting the Power Levers with ones elbow and the #2 engine going to 55% TRQ.

Glad to know that's the probably the reason why.

Yikes. The planes (our 200s and 300s) start getting "jumpy" at Flight Idle I can't imagine going up to 55% parked at the gate. That's crazy.

I bumped the CL's in flight once. Thank god for that gate at MIN otherwise things would have gotten pretty interesting.

 

[derg]

Which JC'er done it?

Question...our procedures have us go to Fuel Off on an Engine Shutdown on Ground and/or Emergency Evac, and I guess I've never thought about it, but since we go straight to Fuel Off on the Condition Levers, would they never make it to feather before they stop?

Good job whomever it was, looks like an on the centerline landing.

Can't blame it on Seggy or Cruise!

 

[derg]

Nobody cares how much we get paid, and Congress can't and shouldn't be involved in legislating pilot pay. The general public will say "Wow, that's not right!" and go right back to googling the latest happenings of Miley Cyrus (that's a thing, right?). It's a market; Pinnacle has had no problems filling classes leading up to the bankruptcy, so why pay you more? We're all guilty of showing up to jobs with crappy wages, and those wages won't change until we do something about it. Trying to force change through actions of the general public or Congress won't do a thing.

Shut the front door and get back to coach!

 

[v1valarob]

It's a market; Pinnacle has had no problems filling classes leading up to the bankruptcy, so why pay you more? We're all guilty of showing up to jobs with crappy wages, and those wages won't change until we do something about it. Trying to force change through actions of the general public or Congress won't do a thing.

Not true. We were unable to fill our last few Saab classes. Between Feb/Mar we had no one for a middle of March class date. I was in Memphis and they were scrambling to interview for a class date 2 weeks away. They ended up canceling the class to new hires. People simply wouldn't show up. We also have a hard time keeping FOs. There is a point when people say.... "hell naw."

 

[jynxyjoe]

Not true. We were unable to fill our last few Saab classes. Between Feb/Mar we had no one for a middle of March class date. I was in Memphis and they were scrambling to interview for a class date 2 weeks away. They ended up canceling the class to new hires. People simply wouldn't show up. We also have a hard time keeping FOs. There is a point when people say.... "hell naw."

Stop it with the facts, he's got this all figured out.

 

[dasleben]

Not true. We were unable to fill our last few Saab classes. Between Feb/Mar we had no one for a middle of March class date. I was in Memphis and they were scrambling to interview for a class date 2 weeks away. They ended up canceling the class to new hires. People simply wouldn't show up. We also have a hard time keeping FOs. There is a point when people say.... "hell naw."

Well, apparently filling those classes wasn't important enough.

EDIT: Multiple ninja edits due to drankin'.

 

[HVYMETALDRVR]

Nobody cares how much we get paid, and Congress can't and shouldn't be involved in legislating pilot pay. The general public will say "Wow, that's not right!" and go right back to googling the latest happenings of Miley Cyrus (that's a thing, right?). It's a market; Pinnacle has had no problems filling classes leading up to the bankruptcy, so why pay you more? We're all guilty of showing up to jobs with crappy wages, and those wages won't change until we do something about it. Trying to force change through actions of the general public or Congress won't do a thing.

I wasn't specifically referring to pilot pay so much although that would be nice... I was referring to the conduct of the company's CEO and upper management in light of the BK and even they're attitude towards the victims families of the Colgan 3407 crash. You are right Das, since most Americans only make between 40-50K a year there not very concerned about regional pilot pay... But the general public really does eat up a good corporate Enron/Bernie Madoff/Goldmann Sachs/AIG corruption story.

But, the actions of the general public through Congress are pretty much the only way to change things. The families of the 3407 crash have had a significant effect on the industry and its safety regulations through Congress. The ATP "1500 hour" rule, and the change in duty regs were all in large part because of they're efforts... after the general public had basically passed over the story of the crash and the safety issues...

 

[jynxyjoe]

I wasn't specifically referring to pilot pay so much although that would be nice... I was referring to the conduct of the company's CEO and upper management in light of the BK and even they're attitude towards the victims families of the Colgan 3407 crash. You are right Das, since most Americans only make between 40-50K a year there not very concerned about regional pilot pay... But the general public really does eat up a good corporate Enron/Bernie Madoff/Goldmann Sachs/AIG corruption story.

But, the actions of the general public through Congress are pretty much the only way to change things. The families of the 3407 crash have had a significant effect on the industry and its safety regulations through Congress. The ATP "1500 hour" rule, and the change in duty regs were all in large part because of they're efforts... after the general public had basically passed over the story of the crash and the safety issues...

I might be a little hypercritical, but to date nothing has come to fruition.

The industry will continue limping along while the taxpayers bail out corporate raiders, or congress and taxpayers will realize the system is purposefully broken and will take it back. Perhaps there is some middle ground that I don't see, and someone bright can come along and fix it, but right now there are a few things clear to me:

• Pilots won't fix anything, they are convinced there are enough shortcuts to a career that they don't need to work together
• The unions (ALPA/SWAPA/APA/USAPA) have not been effectual enough through PAC's and public addresses, and likely they never will be
• Management seems contented with the status quo and as long as their giant checks keep coming that won't change
• Investors and private funds who actually own these giant companies refuse to work hard and be a part of their investment, they just want to give money, sit back, and let the cash roll in. Even when it doesn't they still take no part of the business

I don't believe that just because this model has worked for 10 years, another 10 years will go by with it working the same way. The investors and the pilots have to clean up their acts. Investors have to take an active part of managing their investments by keeping on top of the BOD (and thus the CEO). The pilots have to get organized and get their unions to work together on a top down review with the express purpose of bringing back the profession (pay and qol). It doesn't appears any of that is likely to happen, some things are clear though:

• The regional level was having trouble a year ago staffing itself correctly, and I can't always tell if it is purposeful or inability to attract labor. It will become worse
• Pilots will continue leaving the regional industry
• The regional industry is set to grow again once mainline (as a whole) gives up its scope. American being the biggest question mark right now, then CoTied, then Delta again- certainly Airways won't be around for long in it's present state.
• There will be even more mergers, it's the surest way to grab market share in this sort of economy, it's also the surest way to reduce capacity on a whole so less labor is needed for the same # of passengers.

A sure way to escape this nonsense is congress stepping in and re-regulating, though I have no idea of the popularity of that idea across America as they are willing to watch and participate in a limp-along service model that removes customer service from the equation. Certainly we'd trade one set of problems for another, and I'd much rather see some alternative plans first, but I get the feeling it'll just implode and everyone will point fingers at each other on whose fault it is. Since no party of stakeholders really works well with their own kind, never mind each other, it's probably gonna take another party to come in and "fix it".

 

[dasleben]

I might be a little hypercritical, but to date nothing has come to fruition.

The industry will continue limping along while the taxpayers bail out corporate raiders, or congress and taxpayers will realize the system is purposefully broken and will take it back. Perhaps there is some middle ground that I don't see, and someone bright can come along and fix it, but right now there are a few things clear to me:

• Pilots won't fix anything, they are convinced there are enough shortcuts to a career that they don't need to work together
• The unions (ALPA/SWAPA/APA/USAPA) have not been effectual enough through PAC's and public addresses, and likely they never will be
• Management seems contented with the status quo and as long as their giant checks keep coming that won't change
• Investors and private funds who actually own these giant companies refuse to work hard and be a part of their investment, they just want to give money, sit back, and let the cash roll in. Even when it doesn't they still take no part of the business

I don't believe that just because this model has worked for 10 years, another 10 years will go by with it working the same way. The investors and the pilots have to clean up their acts. Investors have to take an active part of managing their investments by keeping on top of the BOD (and thus the CEO). The pilots have to get organized and get their unions to work together on a top down review with the express purpose of bringing back the profession (pay and qol). It doesn't appears any of that is likely to happen, some things are clear though:

• The regional level was having trouble a year ago staffing itself correctly, and I can't always tell if it is purposeful or inability to attract labor. It will become worse
• Pilots will continue leaving the regional industry
• The regional industry is set to grow again once mainline (as a whole) gives up its scope. American being the biggest question mark right now, then CoTied, then Delta again- certainly Airways won't be around for long in it's present state.
• There will be even more mergers, it's the surest way to grab market share in this sort of economy, it's also the surest way to reduce capacity on a whole so less labor is needed for the same # of passengers.

A sure way to escape this nonsense is congress stepping in and re-regulating, though I have no idea of the popularity of that idea across America as they are willing to watch and participate in a limp-along service model that removes customer service from the equation. Certainly we'd trade one set of problems for another, and I'd much rather see some alternative plans first, but I get the feeling it'll just implode and everyone will point fingers at each other on whose fault it is. Since no party of stakeholders really works well with their own kind, never mind each other, it's probably gonna take another party to come in and "fix it".

Holy crap, I agree 100% with jynxyjoe. Solid post, even! I do believe that the only party who can fix the situation is, well, us.

HVYMETALDRVR: Flight safety has been addressed by our lawmakers, as that directly affects the American public. Our take home wages may shock the people surfing CNN.com, but there's not enough of an impetus to do anything; it simply doesn't directly affect the public like new rest rules do. The only thing that will cause an increase in pay and QOL is a fundamental shift in the market. Currently, qualified pilots who are willing to accept low pay are a dime a dozen; there is very little reason to raise pay at most companies. However, I don't believe that will continue forever. A fundamental shift in supply is approaching due to retirements and a lack of people in primary flight training. Just hang in there.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Well, apparently filling those classes wasn't important enough.

EDIT: Multiple ninja edits due to drankin'.

Circa 2007-2008 Mesa Airlines had attrition of about 50% of the pilots per year (700 pilots quit that year) and Johnathan Ornstein said the same thing you did -- he isn't having any trouble filling his classes, so why should he pay the pilots more? Except the insane amount of controllable cancellations due to lack of crews was in my opinion a direct cause of Delta canceling Freedom's ERJ-145 contract, and subsequently the CRJ-900 contract, which caused the airline to enter a downward spiral for which it has never recovered.

 

[dasleben]

Circa 2007-2008 Mesa Airlines had attrition of about 50% of the pilots per year (700 pilots quit that year) and Johnathan Ornstein said the same thing you did -- he isn't having any trouble filling his classes, so why should he pay the pilots more? Except the insane amount of controllable cancellations due to lack of crews was in my opinion a direct cause of Delta canceling Freedom's ERJ-145 contract, and subsequently the CRJ-900 contract, which caused the airline to enter a downward spiral for which it has never recovered.

I don't want you guys thinking I'm channeling Ornstein here. Ornstein screwed up big time and destroyed a company over it. I'm simply stating that if it was important enough to the company to attract and retain pilots, they would have to raise pay. RAH has begun offering a $5,000 signing bonus because of this, and I see this as the beginning of that fundamental shift that will help us as a whole.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

I don't want you guys thinking I'm channeling Ornstein here. Ornstein screwed up big time. I'm simply stating that if it was important enough to the company to attract and retain pilots, they would have to raise pay. RAH has begun offering a $5,000 signing bonus because of this, and I see this as the beginning of that fundamental shift that will help us as a whole.

I'm not saying you are, I'm just saying that you're making the assumptions that the people who run airlines act in a rational manner. They don't. At least some won't. If Mesa gave a 10-15% pay increase they could have dropped the number of attrition down significantly, which would then have drastically reduced training costs. Just from the training costs they could have paid for the entire pay raise. That's just an example.

The point I was trying to make is that many airline management do not weigh things in a rational manner. They see any "concession" to union labor as a failure, even if they from a business perspective _need_ to increase compensation.