Please explain unions to me.

aloft said:
Very good for management--and debatable as to whether this outweighs every other union benefit. In most other industries, were management to come and say "we're going to cut your pay by 50%", most workers would've said "do that and I'm outta here". How many Delta pilots quit after their pay was cut? Few, if any, I'm guessing. Tying pilots' fates to a single company is the single most stupid idea in the history of stupid ideas.
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The aviation industry cannot be compared to any other industry because of this. If a Delta captain quits, he cant just go to United and get hired on the same type of aircraft as a Captain. In fact just getting on in the first place will be the hardest part.

In most other industry's you have the luxury of quitting at your current level, and getting a job at the same level at another company.
 
Next time you get some free time read 3 books.

-Fate is the hunter
-Flying the line vol. 1
-Flying the line vol. 2


If you like airplanes you will love the books. Behind the story/plot of the 3 they will bring together the basis on what a union is and how it is needed and desired. Comparing corporate to airlines is comparing a 370Z to a Ferrari- sure they are both "sports cars" but both are totally different animals used in different ways. After you read the books think about the different things you have read on here and give us all an update.

Knowledge requires personal effort, experience takes time, between the two you will come full circle.:)
 
I also recommend "North Star Over my Shoulder" by Captain Bob Buck. His discussions of ALPA's contribution to safety are excellent, especially in light of the fact that he spent a large portion of his career in management.
 
PCL_128 said:
I also recommend "North Star Over my Shoulder" by Captain Bob Buck. His discussions of ALPA's contribution to safety are excellent, especially in light of the fact that he spent a large portion of his career in management.
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:yeahthat:

"North Star" is a great read. It's not a text book, he's not preaching, and yet one learns so much reading it.

It's well worth the time for anyone here to read.
 
So you've gone from 580 hours and "almost a CFII" to "senior dude" in just a little under 3 years? Hahahaha....I think not. You're still a n00b, dude.
 
The senior dude was referencing that I am a senior member here. Again if you can read I haven't updated my info.
 
dhc2tacksby said:
I'll be honest, I cannot fathom how a Union will benefit me.
A company is making money, great. A Company loses money needs to trim the fat, so fire (furlough) a few people to lean out. It's how the capitalist world turns.

When I was 16-18 I worked at a grocery store. I was part of a union that limited me to 20 hours a week. I saw hard workers be capped at 20 hours/week until they hit 5 year seniority and crappy workers the exact same. Promoting was based on date or hire, not work performance. Sound familiar?

Now lets talk about flying. Airlines/121 are pretty much unionized, corporate/135 not so much. Yet both seem to get people from A to B safely, (relatively). I could care less about 1 let alone 500 passengers I carry. As long as I get there, so will my passengers.

Why is it that an FO on a Challenger 604 makes 2-3 times as much as a RJ FO does when the they are flying the exact same profiles?

Answer: Collective Bargaining Agreements. IE: The FAA mandates the duty day, the airline say's "you should work within the FAA rules." The union lobby is getting paid handsomely, with little to no results on that issue, but I digress...

Once hired with a business with a union, membership is a obligatory. It's like a gang initiation, except the bruises and scrapes go away after a month with the Crips, and the dues keep on coming out of the paycheck every two weeks.

So please explain to me why I should pay $12/paycheck to a group that "defends my interest's" but fails to note what my interest's are?
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Teamsters also give you free bats....

Unions are a necessary evil. The problem with unions is that everything has to be going alright for it to be effective. Unions are there to make sure they divide the pot of gold evenly and to make sure a company's prosperity is shared with the workforce. Also, one of the major problems is they know how much you make. A lowly regional pilot is at the absolute very bottom of the priority list for the very union that is taking money away. And even less likely to hold your interests at heart. The problems start to emerge and bats start to fly when an industry for the last several decades has been on a death spiral, thanks mostly to deregulation. The only way to survive in this environment for management is to undercut. What can ALPA and company do about that? Nothing.

There are plenty of non-union places that have happy pilots and that is because management has chosen to take the highroad. Not even ALPA can change the mindset and corporate culture of a management. What is also very puzzling is the issue you have brought out as far as pay. I still don't understand, and this may be the only industry in the world, how is it possible for a pilot to make the same exact pay and in some cases even less than what a pilot made decades before? How come nothing has been done about that?
 
PCL_128 said:
Non-unionized employees leech off of the progress of ALPA.

That's ridiculous, like who? Skywest? It's more like ALPA regionals are trying to leach off of Skywest's "contract"

You think Skywest and JetBlue would pay what they do if it weren't for ALPA? Of course not.

Yea they would, otherwise they'd have no pilots for very long.

If it weren't for ALPA, air line pilots would get paid minimum wage and have 5 days off a month.

I used to be ALPA, I made minimum wage and had 5 days off not including the commute. Same pay as a junior alpa pilot would have made in the 70s!

Non-union companies pay comparable wages and benefits because they want to keep the union off the property.

That's the whole point isn't it? I'd rather be at a place where there is a relationship between pilots and management rather than a division. People then actually become motivated to do their job right.

The problem, of course, is that you don't get that attorney when you need one, like the Skywest pilot who was unlawfully terminated for an accusation of writing something derogatory about the CP on the bathroom wall.

Oh really? What would ALPA do? Help a CA who crashed an airplane keep their job?
.
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I am pro-union. But I don't drink the kool-aid like you do. I don't need it, I just look at the industry.
 
Number1atNumber2 said:
10 pages.

Or thread lock soon methinks..
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I think it's going pretty well so far, actually.

To see a well-versed, mature discussion of this issue is fine. In fact, I think it's a GOOD thing. It's an issue that is extremely important in this industry. As long as there's no poo-slinging, name-calling or personal attacks this thread will remain open.
 
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