Please explain unions to me.
- Thread starter Nark
- Start date
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Let me point out one thing, and this isn't the first time I've pointed it out, and it probably won't be the last.
The folks that clamor the loudest about not needing unions are those that don't fly for an airline. The folks that remind you, politely that a union is good are line pilots. And the folks that are screaming at you that we need to have unions? They've been in leadership at a union.
Know why they're screaming at you? Because being in the positions they've held, they've seen EXACTLY what management thinks about pilot groups, and has shown them first hand what they'll do to a pilot on what seems like a whim.
You guys may consider that folks have extreme opinions about things for a reason, and it's usually the experience of watching somebody get fired for no reason and having to work incredibly hard to get their job back.
Just as an aside, because it seems that nobody keeps track about this stuff anymore, but we've had the following folks chime in on this thread:
-People without pilots licenses
-Private pilots
-Flight instructors
-A freight pilot
-A few regional pilots
-A person that has been an MEC chairman.
-A person in management at an airline.
Consider that more private pilots and flight instructors have responded in this thread than anybody else.
The folks that clamor the loudest about not needing unions are those that don't fly for an airline. The folks that remind you, politely that a union is good are line pilots. And the folks that are screaming at you that we need to have unions? They've been in leadership at a union.
Know why they're screaming at you? Because being in the positions they've held, they've seen EXACTLY what management thinks about pilot groups, and has shown them first hand what they'll do to a pilot on what seems like a whim.
You guys may consider that folks have extreme opinions about things for a reason, and it's usually the experience of watching somebody get fired for no reason and having to work incredibly hard to get their job back.
Just as an aside, because it seems that nobody keeps track about this stuff anymore, but we've had the following folks chime in on this thread:
-People without pilots licenses
-Private pilots
-Flight instructors
-A freight pilot
-A few regional pilots
-A person that has been an MEC chairman.
-A person in management at an airline.
Consider that more private pilots and flight instructors have responded in this thread than anybody else.
Since I think this may have been somewhat directly or indirectly aimed at me, I just want to go on the record as saying that I am pro-union in the airline industry.
Most of my airline union knowledge comes from JC and a former AA captain who I have had the pleasure to talk with about these issues. His general advice was that unions (like everything) have their plusses and minuses. He also said that "management knows who the nonunion (agency fee paying) pilots are. And if a nonunion pilot gives management a reason to, they will shoot you through the head."
That being said, some of the militancy on this board about being a union member is a real turnoff to some of us.
When I was hired at an agency shop (nonairline) years ago, the only communication I got from the union was after two months of being employed there. "You need to pay your dues or agency fee or your employment will be terminated" was the jist of the letter I received. No talk of the benefits that the union had secured over the years.
I think it would be helpful if some of those on this board whose only experience is with airline unions would remember there are others here who have had different experiences with unions and what may seem cut-and-dried to some is a complex issue for others.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Also realize that some of us who are very supportive of unions in the airline profession also have previous union experience elsewhere in the aviation industry (nature). Further, some of us have some very strong convictions when it comes to economic policy and philosophy due to our upbringing (nurture).
But yes, it's not necessarily a cut and dry simplistic environment. It's very difficult to explain the nuances of the benefits related to having a representative voice on an online web forum that is frequented by - largely - those who are trying to break into the profession and are willing to do so at whatever the cost is.
Bottom line is, if your long term goals are to be employed with an airline or even a larger corporate flight department you will face some of the challenges that organized labor have already faced and addressed, largely to the benefit of the aviation community. Further, if you do plan on staying in this profession long enough, at some point you're very likely to end up working at a company that has a collective bargaining agent for the pilot group.
If you don't like that last bit, then well, stay away from the union shops and enjoy the auxiliary benefits from the side.
But yes, it's not necessarily a cut and dry simplistic environment. It's very difficult to explain the nuances of the benefits related to having a representative voice on an online web forum that is frequented by - largely - those who are trying to break into the profession and are willing to do so at whatever the cost is.
Bottom line is, if your long term goals are to be employed with an airline or even a larger corporate flight department you will face some of the challenges that organized labor have already faced and addressed, largely to the benefit of the aviation community. Further, if you do plan on staying in this profession long enough, at some point you're very likely to end up working at a company that has a collective bargaining agent for the pilot group.
If you don't like that last bit, then well, stay away from the union shops and enjoy the auxiliary benefits from the side.
The "what's the point?" pretty much came to an abrupt end to me when I started working full time in the airline business and my knowledge of the business evolved from an "academic" interest to "really? they've increased our hours by 22% and we're just flat salary?" type situations.
Sadly, for the most part, describing the necessity of unions in the airline business to non-professional pilots is akin to describing to your grandmother about how the accelerometer works in your iPod Touch to enable you to control your character in "Crash Bandicoot 3D" when she's still got a rotary dial telephone and is still wondering what happened to the Michael Douglas show.
I'm not trying to be insulting at all, but there are many aspects of the business that are difficult to understand without having a occupational investment in the field.
Sadly, for the most part, describing the necessity of unions in the airline business to non-professional pilots is akin to describing to your grandmother about how the accelerometer works in your iPod Touch to enable you to control your character in "Crash Bandicoot 3D" when she's still got a rotary dial telephone and is still wondering what happened to the Michael Douglas show.
I'm not trying to be insulting at all, but there are many aspects of the business that are difficult to understand without having a occupational investment in the field.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Stop being insulting. . .!
Matt13C
Well-Known Member
My only question, as it is the most important to me in my current position. Why have unions not done anything about the absolutely disgraceful and insulting pay you are forced to suffer through your first few years at an airline?
Many airlines and larger corporate and charter companies require a college education. On top of that education you need to acquire all of the ratings and build the required time just to submit your resume for a job. Then when you are hired you are paid less than unskilled day labor wages.
Many airlines and larger corporate and charter companies require a college education. On top of that education you need to acquire all of the ratings and build the required time just to submit your resume for a job. Then when you are hired you are paid less than unskilled day labor wages.
No insult taken. I would like to make that investment in the field; hence my reason for taking the time to post.
Well, they're trying.
It's not a magic wand.
Largely, once pilot groups lost control of the flying, they lost A LOT of bargaining power.
Some of the carriers with pilots who decried the "evils of scope", which was eroded by both concessionary contracts after 9/11 and (in my opinion) attempts to appease other pilot groups was actually the one thing that we ALL need.
You can negotiate the best rates and work rules on earth, but if those on mahogany row can save $0.01 and make an example out of your pilot group, that flying which you were unable to protect is going to be shifted. And shifted and shifted and shifted.
I'll be more than happy to help elucidate why I think organized labor is necessary and answer most any question, but I don't have the patience for a "yeah... BUT!" circular logic exchange.
It's not a magic wand.
Largely, once pilot groups lost control of the flying, they lost A LOT of bargaining power.
Some of the carriers with pilots who decried the "evils of scope", which was eroded by both concessionary contracts after 9/11 and (in my opinion) attempts to appease other pilot groups was actually the one thing that we ALL need.
You can negotiate the best rates and work rules on earth, but if those on mahogany row can save $0.01 and make an example out of your pilot group, that flying which you were unable to protect is going to be shifted. And shifted and shifted and shifted.
I'll be more than happy to help elucidate why I think organized labor is necessary and answer most any question, but I don't have the patience for a "yeah... BUT!" circular logic exchange.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Because it's the process of negotiating.
Don't think for a second that unions (in any industry) are void of trying to improve entry-level wages, but just remember it's just the process of having to negotiate for the collective body.
Company has a proposal, the Union has a proposal, and they negotiate to find the equitable solution.
Now, the excuse you'll hear at least in the regional game is that obviously first year pay is due to being on probation, and the company making an effort to save some money considering they most likely spent 30-50 grand on training you.
Now, that doesn't mean I approve of it, but that's just the way it goes. Also, largely, First Officer pay is dependent on Captain pay for the same period of longevity. Some companies it is 60%, some 75%, and some a range between those two figures, and some even less. . .
Since not a great deal of time is spent negotiating first through three year Captain rates, the first through three year First Officer rates will be subject to whatever increase Captain rates see and perhaps any additional increases the union and company can come to an agreement on.
Also, a sad fact of the matter is that a majority of our companies consider our "flight benefits" as part of our compensation model. Flight benefit costs might be a 10 to 20% of one's total compensation.
I don't know about everyone else, but I'd much rather give up my flight benefits and have that 10 or 20% actually be tangible income that I will see as opposed to never really non-revving around. But, that's for a whole 'nother thread.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Bingo.
Or why an airline would attempt to fire probies instead of furlough them, which is kind of old hat in the airline business.
If you don't think it happens, you haven't been around during lean times!
Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
I have flown on both sides of the union/no union fence in the 121 world; those who know me know that I am not crazy about them. What I have realized over the years is that you are usually better off with them. Without a contract there are a lot of shenanigans that go on and there isn't much a pilot group can do about it without a union and a contract (assuming a judge doesn't turn in into TP).
The whole problem in this industry and others (e.g. banking) is that adults cannot act like adults and treat each other with the respect they deserve. Instead most top level executives act like greedy little children and schoolyard bullies.
The whole problem in this industry and others (e.g. banking) is that adults cannot act like adults and treat each other with the respect they deserve. Instead most top level executives act like greedy little children and schoolyard bullies.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Not quite accurate. Legally, ALPA is just one huge union. The MECs are not legally recognized as individual units. When an MEC contracts with an outside attorney, for example, the attorney is contracted by ALPA, not by the MEC, because the MEC itself is not legally recognized. Notice that your CBA on the first page probably says something to the effect of "as represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, Intl," and your MEC is mentioned nowhere.
Now, that's the legal answer. The more practical application is that ALPA's governing bodies have created a Constitution & Bylaws that create individual MECs to govern their own local matters. The MEC still doesn't exist as a separate entity as far as the law is concerned, but the Bylaws do allow for local governing of local issues to a certain extent.
Smacked? Hardly. It may surprise you to hear that I attended a speech given by Captain Woerth about four years ago in which he stated almost the exact same thing. ALPA does provide a lot more structure and support than any independent union, but it still leaves a bit to be desired. Centralizing more power would probably be beneficial to the profession. Of course, there is always a backlash from a lot of pilots whenever you say that you want to take away some of their local power. That's why it never changes, even when the ALPA President thinks it needs to.
This is all about setting priorities in bargaining. There is a certain amount of money that you'll be able to extract from a company, and no more. Let's say that you've estimated the company's total bottom line amount that they'll be willing to accept is a $100 million increase over three years. Your job as a negotiator is to determine where to allocate that money. Do you really want to allocate it towards first year pilots that are on probation and may not even make it to year two? The company will argue that they're already spending $30k+ on each one of these newhires in training costs, so they'll want to include that as part of the costing. Do you use your negotiating leverage to bring up this rate significantly, or do you spend that leverage on the higher longevity rates? That's the call that each MEC has to make, and it isn't always easy. I'll be honest: I've never been a fan of expending a whole lot of bargaining power on first year rates. Bring it up to COLA, and that's fine with me. Those dollars are better spent on other areas of the agreement. But that's just my opinion.
JoelT
Well-Known Member
Way back when (up to the 70's, early 80's) ALPA was a much more centralized Union. But, there was a severe backlash from the pilots that wanted the power at the local level. I think I a lot of the decline we have seen is partly to blame for that.
I think every ALPA member needs to sit down with Don Skiados and Phil Comstock to learn the recent history of ALPA. Since both of those guys are non-pilots but, have been on the front lines their perpective is invaluble.
For those that don't know. Skiados is the ALPA Director of Communication and a professor at Georgetown. Comstock is the CEO of the Wilson polling center and an honorary member of almost all if not all AFL-CIO Unions. He is never afraid to say it like it is.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Skiados is actually retiring in June. 
ladder360
Well-Known Member
I had kind of assumed this was the case - it actually makes sense. However, if management takes the $30K for training argument, why aren't 2nd year FOs making $30K more per year than 1st year FOs?
I guess an even bigger thought in my head (that you guys can answer with experience) is: is it better to have a larger gap between the most senior captains and the most junior line guys? Or a larger salary at the beginning of the career, with a smaller gap between the senior and junior guys?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
In many cases they are. Before the bankruptcy contracts, they were at almost all major airlines. In fact, it was even better than that in many cases. We need to focus on bringing those 2+ year rates up a lot higher.
Conventional wisdom has always held that a steep payrate gradient was best because it weighted the top longevity rates with the highest rate possible. Why is this good? Because you'll likely spend the majority of your career at the top longevity rate. Let's say you have a 25 year career at Delta. The payscale tops out at 12 years, so over half of your career will be spent making that top longevity rate. Is it better to allocate that money to a longevity rate that you'll spend one year at, or a longevity rate that you'll spend 13 years at?
This theory has been hurt somewhat by the frequent bankruptcies that have taken place post-deregulation, but the concept still makes sense to a degree. I believe the best answer is to keep the steep gradient, but add a portable longevity system to protect pilots in cases of liquidation.
higney85
Property of Scheduling
Any union is only as good as it's volunteers. You don't like something? Volunteer and get it changed. Over the life of AlPA the big positive changes have happened in times of conflict with mgmt and/or safety. Airline pilots complain- it's our version of therapy, but if you want to change something it only takes interest. Before you know it you are volunteering and trying to make a difference. Read the books listed a couple pages back, take a look at a union site (AlPA.org for ex) and see all the services that come from a union.
ladder360
Well-Known Member
I can certainly see the logic in that. However, in your opinion, would it be easier for labor to negotiate (and airline management to accept) a portable longevity system if the pay gradient was a little less steep?
I'm trying to find another unionized profession where this is the case. Granted, Pilots are unique in that the skill set is much more technical than most mainstream union jobs, making it difficult to compare to any other unionized profession. They are also limited by hours, where many other professions offer heavy overtime opportunities.
From a QOL perspective, as a plant operator, firefighter or letter carrier for instance, the gradient is much less pronounced. I would think it's easier for someone in their first couple years of work to establish a solid budget foundation in those positions. As opposed to flying, where one is either struggling to get by (first year FO) or constantly packing away a chunk of his/her pay in the (not so unlikely) event they get furloughed. Again, I don't know squat, because I'm not yet flying 121. Just trying to get an inside look.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Absolutely, but the benefits of such a system start to disappear when you decrease the gradient, as the main purpose of portable longevity would be to keep from starting at a low pay rate. There would still be small benefits, like vacation accrual and some other small items, but compensation is the main purpose of portable longevity. I actually think it would be much more difficult to flatten the gradient than it would be to negotiate portable longevity.