Plane down. New Smyrna, FL

If I were the controller, hearing that voice, using those words, I think I would have tried to get the pilot to continue straight and level while assessing the situation.

When the controller told the pilot to increase altitude, I could picture the yoke being yanked back.

If I could change anything to eliminate those that shouldn't be in the cockpit, I would think about creating a max hours allowed before soloing. If it requires 100 hours, as we've seen with some foreign students, maybe they don't have have the skills to be a pilot, especially a commercial pilot.
 
Sosee said:
While I understand your logic on the language thing here, I feel that is also very much a Pandora's box.
Yes it might have saved her life and to that end I say if someone did speak her dialect, let them help.

However, this also could be turned into a "policy" of sorts and a big part of having one language serve as the official aviation language, is not just to enable communication directly between a controller and airplane but to also allow others on frequency to hear and understand everyone's communications.
I detect transmissions not directed at me, but which are about the aircraft I am operating all the time.
"Cirrus 123wtf, traffic 2 O'clock, 2 miles, a Baron at 7500 descending for Van Nuys" when I am in the Baron.

While the controller hasn't yet addressed me in the Baron, I now know to be on the lookout for that Cirrus traffic.
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Don't fly overseas (or even in the Caribbean, for that matter) then...there is a ton of "local language" used.
 
Stone Cold said:
Don't fly overseas (or even in the Caribbean, for that matter) then...there is a ton of "local language" used.
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True. Its language gumbo down there.
My problem is that if you encourage the FAA to create a policy, they will...and lord help us if they do.

I think controllers should have more empowerment to be human and step outside the box to help solve problems. A few of my controller friends describe near censorship level scrutiny of their performance and honestly, if it doesn't become some sort of official policy in some warped skewed manner and if having a Chinese, Japanese, French, Spanish etc etc speaking controller revert back to their native tongue to save lives will work, DO IT! Just don't screw it up with an official policy "authorizing" such under "INSERT LUDICROUS CIRCUMSTANCES HERE" qualifications.

Maybe it could have saved this pilot.
 
Sosee said:
True. Its language gumbo down there.
My problem is that if you encourage the FAA to create a policy, they will...and lord help us if they do.

I think controllers should have more empowerment to be human and step outside the box to help solve problems. A few of my controller friends describe near censorship level scrutiny of their performance and honestly, if it doesn't become some sort of official policy in some warped skewed manner and if having a Chinese, Japanese, French, Spanish etc etc speaking controller revert back to their native tongue to save lives will work, DO IT! Just don't screw it up with an official policy "authorizing" such under "INSERT LUDICROUS CIRCUMSTANCES HERE" qualifications.

Maybe it could have saved this pilot.
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I heard a student-ish sounding pilot today that was sort of asking for a suggestion as wether they should cancel in the air or wait till landing and the response was more or less "I can't or won't encourage you to do that its up to you." I found the comment interesting.
 
Sol Rosenburg said:
I heard a student-ish sounding pilot today that was sort of asking for a suggestion as wether they should cancel in the air or wait till landing and the response was more or less "I can't or won't encourage you to do that its up to you." I found the comment interesting.
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There are a few things pilots are required to request and ATC is not allowed to suggest, Canceling IFR is one. The other two I can think of off the top of my head are Special VFR and contact approaches.
 
I haven't seen anything of the preceding circumstances cited here and those who are calling for the DPE and CFI to be lynched probably are not aware of them either. It may be that the BFR and IPC, if anything, is what requires scrutiny. The pilot may very well have met all applicable standards for the certificates she held at the time she achieved them. So, when was that then?

To cite her total time as a yardstick for judging expected competency without reference to recency is nonsense as is judging her ability on the radio when you don't know how long it may have been since she spoke English. How do you know how long it has been since she flew? A 20,000 hour pilot might very well be able to pick up where he left off after 12 years absence with minimal training but that will not happen with a 400 hour pilot.
 
bb10pilot said:
Here's the ATC audio: https://soundcloud.com/pilotdarb/zjx-dab-jan-14-2015-0130z-edited
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Horribly sad to hear! RIP

As a student pilot in Oregon, my instructor signed me off for my first cross country flight after getting a wx brief and planning the flight. At the time, there were forest fires burning in Oregon but it was a clear day and forecast VFR. Once enroute, winds shifted and visibility started diminishing. I was over mountainous terrain flying MFR-EUG-MFR. I turned back and considered trying to land at RBG but decided to continue on back to home base...where I was familiar. Bad decision. I found myself IMC (smoke), over mountains and scared to death. Upon losing all reference to the ground, I initially ended up in a 600' a minute descent and a 30 degree left banked turn. I don't know how, but I managed to get straight and level and contacted Cascade Approach. At that point it was all I could do to maintain heading and altitude. Forget trying to navigate using the VOR. I called and simply stated, " Student pilot - I NEED HELP". They were great. They vectored me all the way back to MFR and the smoke was so bad, I didn't see the runway until I was basically over it. I've never been so happy to land an airplane. Breaks my heart for this girl, as I know how it feels to get in that situation.
 
womanpilot73 said:
Horribly sad to hear! RIP

As a student pilot in Oregon, my instructor signed me off for my first cross country flight after getting a wx brief and planning the flight. At the time, there were forest fires burning in Oregon but it was a clear day and forecast VFR. Once enroute, winds shifted and visibility started diminishing. I was over mountainous terrain flying MFR-EUG-MFR. I turned back and considered trying to land at RBG but decided to continue on back to home base...where I was familiar. Bad decision. I found myself IMC (smoke), over mountains and scared to death. Upon losing all reference to the ground, I initially ended up in a 600' a minute descent and a 30 degree left banked turn. I don't know how, but I managed to get straight and level and contacted Cascade Approach. At that point it was all I could do to maintain heading and altitude. Forget trying to navigate using the VOR. I called and simply stated, " Student pilot - I NEED HELP". They were great. They vectored me all the way back to MFR and the smoke was so bad, I didn't see the runway until I was basically over it. I've never been so happy to land an airplane. Breaks my heart for this girl, as I know how it feels to get in that situation.
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Hell of an experience for you. Glad it came out all right.
 
killbilly said:
Hell of an experience for you. Glad it came out all right.
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Thank you. Clearly, so am I. It took me a while to get back up as it shook me up pretty good. Pilot friends and instructors encouraged me based on my actions, stating that I did everything right as a student pilot. I definitely learned a lot on that day.

I'd like to comment on people's reactions to how this could have happened, given her TT and the fact that she was instrument rated. What we don't know is her history and type of experience, as some have said. There is a big difference in the experience one gets hand flying in actual as a low time pilot vs VFR all day every day under the hood. And we don't know if she'd taken time off from flying but my guess would be yes, since she wasn't authorized to solo in a 150. I think I read that she'd had a few flights under her belt since arriving in FL. If you've been flying regularly, a checkout in a 150 should take no more than an hour or two with an instructor.

I speak on the following from personal experience - just because one has an IR does not make them skilled to fly IMC! Despite the fact that I'm instrument rated, there is no way I would be flying in wx solo right now. I'm not current but it would take some additional flying, beyond just getting current for me to feel safe doing so. My own situation caused me to step away from flying for several years (not by choice) and I've only flown about 25-30 hours in the last few years - all VFR. Recently, after completing my BFR, I shot my first ILS approach in 8 years. Holy crap...what a mess that first one was! I can totally see that if she had taken time off and wasn't IFR current, things going south fast. And about her communication with ATC - there absolutely IS a level of fear that can literally take one's voice from them completely, so it does not surprise me that if scared enough, she could lose the ability to communicate effectively.

The questions I have echo many others...how did she get access to the aircraft and did she just not check the wx? Was she IFR current? Whatever the answers are...its a horribly sad situation and I hope it changes whatever the school's policy is on how their aircraft are dispatched.
 
GypsyPilot said:
Does it change anybody's opinion that she had a commercial pilot certificate and some type of 737 sign off?
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Currency != Proficiency;

1, 100, 1000, or even 10,000 hours in the logbook, if enough time elapses, the skills could deteriorate enough to kill you if you aren't careful.

The difference between hour 1 and 10,000 at that point is you theoretically know through "experience" when a situation would put you in over your head.
 
GypsyPilot said:
Does it change anybody's opinion that she had a commercial pilot certificate and some type of 737 sign off?
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If true, there is no reason (currency or lack there of included) that she could not level the wings and climb. There has to be more to the story.
 
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greg1016 said:
There are a few things pilots are required to request and ATC is not allowed to suggest, Canceling IFR is one. The other two I can think of off the top of my head are Special VFR and contact approaches.
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ATC not being able to encourage or offer these up is all for good reason, IMO. 'Hey N123AB, tell you what, cleared contact approach, go ahead and take her down to about 1100', follow Walden for about four miles, then look for 32 off your right side. I'll turn the lights up. K? K!' Yeah... no.

As for the 737 type; at first, I read the certificate which only says 'High Altitude Endorsement,' but then I read the hat. If her hat says it, it must be true--strange narrative indeed.
 
"Where's the training records and certificate for your type?"
"Ummm...I have this hat..."

Or

Maybe they were out of the "737 high altitude endorsed" hats at the time.

Seriously though, I'm not sure. I didn't see anything on their website, but I recall an article from a few years back about a one or two day 737 "experience" for novices.
 
PFGiardino said:
As for the 737 type; at first, I read the certificate which only says 'High Altitude Endorsement,' but then I read the hat. If her hat says it, it must be true--strange narrative indeed.
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I read the same thing...but a quick search of the FAA Registry shows no type rating. It states the following:

Date of Issue: 4/14/2010
Certificate: COMMERCIAL PILOT Print
Ratings:
COMMERCIAL PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND
INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE

Limits:
ENGLISH PROFICIENT.
 
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