Plane down. New Smyrna, FL

A long while back, as an ~800 hour guy, I got my ass handed to me flying in the soup for the first time in two/three years. Had the perpindicular LOC frequency tuned and things got all kinds of strange when being vectored for the intercept. Caught the mistake, got myself reoriented, flew and landed it. I think ATC could tell I bit off more than I could chew, but they didn't say anything about it.

So, having some experience with 'whoa, a check-the-box IPC under the hood does not equal a safe IMC operation,' I have to believe there is more to this unfortunate story. Either the reporting is off; she slipped through the checkride cracks; or the person in charge of keys was asleep at the switch, and now the owners are trying to cover that up.

Whatever the case, it sucks, and was a hard listen. RIP.
 
tomokc said:
Since the logbook was recovered hopefully NTSB prelim will provide some clarify on the 420 flight hours the flight school owner claims the pilot had.

Panic and disorientation notwithstanding, I have trouble understanding how a 420-hour, foreign-born pilot can simultaneously lose the ability to aviate, communicate using basic aviation syntax, and possibly not understand the NAVCOM (she seemed to be broadcasting on one COM, listening on the other).
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Is it that hard to understand? I have trouble understanding how 3 pilots with 20,000 hrs among them stalled a widebody jetliner and kept it stalled for the entire plunge from FL350 down to the Atlantic ocean. Or stalling a perfectly flyable Q400 outside Buffalo. Those I have trouble understanding when you consider they were ATP-rated or qualified pilots. One private pilot renting a Cessna 152 and getting caught up in a bad situation? That's not the tough one to understand.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Is it that hard to understand? I have trouble understanding how 3 pilots with 20,000 hrs among them stalled a widebody jetliner and kept it stalled for the entire plunge from FL350 down to the Atlantic ocean. Or stalling a perfectly flyable Q400 outside Buffalo. Those I have trouble understanding when you consider they were ATP-rated or qualified pilots. One private pilot renting a Cessna 152 and getting caught up in a bad situation? That's not the tough one to understand.
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Fatigued pilots, some with records of multiple training failures, and others with training deficiencies, well known cultural issues, and in new equipment? It's unacceptable, but I can see it.

The 4-500 hour pilot and this accident? Like the accidents you cited above, I'm willing to bet there's more to the story.
 
GypsyPilot said:
The 4-500 hour pilot and this accident? Like the accidents you cited above, I'm willing to bet there's more to the story.
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American pilots in the 50-500 hour window are by far the most likely to be killed in an airplane crash.

VFR only pilots entering IMC typically only last 2 minutes before digging a smoking hole in the ground, and a student who has likely never flown IMC by themselves is not an instrument pilot regardless if they are rated or not.

I don't know if you have any experience training foreign students from non-western cultures, but they are simply do not have the same level of proficiency and judgment that you are assuming they have.
 
USMCmech said:
VFR only pilots entering IMC typically only last 2 minutes before digging a smoking hole in the ground, and a student who has likely never flown IMC by themselves is not an instrument pilot regardless if they are rated or not.
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How is one then suppose to get enough experiences in actual to fly solo in it?
 
USMCmech said:
American pilots in the 50-500 hour window are by far the most likely to be killed in an airplane crash.

VFR only pilots entering IMC typically only last 2 minutes before digging a smoking hole in the ground, and a student who has likely never flown IMC by themselves is not an instrument pilot regardless if they are rated or not.

I don't know if you have any experience training foreign students from non-western cultures, but they are simply do not have the same level of proficiency and judgment that you are assuming they have.
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As a former CFI, I'm well aware of the record for VFR pilots into IMC.
I'm also familiar with foreign flight students, as I taught at an airport in FL that had a school next to mine with one of the most notorious safety records at the time - all foreign students.

If this was a new foreign pilot I would possibly agree with you. But this individual supposedly had over 400 hours... So not new, and most likely flying for several years.

Taking all of the supposed factors here...

1)Somewhat experienced IFR rated pilot.

2)Departure into poor weather conditions that were EASILY checked by even a student pilot with a phone.

3)Strange radio phraseology that I would not even expect from one of my post-solo student pilots.

It all adds up to a very strange situation in my opinion. Foreign student or not, something isn't right.
 
Runincolorado said:
How is one then suppose to get enough experiences in actual to fly solo in it?
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Not sure what he's getting at either. I did my IFR rating in Colorado, which also has poor IMC flying days (when it's IMC here, it's almost always icy as well). Later when I moved to FL, I sought out IMC days to expand upon my experience. That really is the key of course... Start out with comfortable margins and expand your experience.
 
What's the point of an IR if you can not go out and exercise the privilege after getting the rating? And whether current or not, an IR pilot should be able climb wings level in a stable fashion. This pilot was way out of her element, and there has to be more to this story.
 
That IS really hard to hear. But keep in mind, fog can roll in quick. Those not used to the weather in the area wouldn't know to expect it. She was probably VFR when she took off and the fog rolled in while she was airborne. The fog rolled in and game over. She panics, mind shuts down and forgets everything she learned prior. Communication is one of the first things to go when a student gets in a panic. She just got into the states a few days prior and hadn't had a chance to acclimate to the culture again and bang shes in the middle of an emergency. Brain freeze.

Now that explains in my mind what happened during the flight. What that doesn't explain is how she got the keys.

Is it possible that the FBO didn't secure the keys and any student who had access to the building could get the keys? I've been at lots of places where the keys just hang on a wall, or the aircraft binder is just on a shelf so anyone can grab it. At one place they just had a lock box next to the planes. Anyone who had the pin # could access 15 or so aircraft of differing abilities. On a given day I had access to everything from a Cessna 180 to a Cessna 310 and everything in between. Anyone could have taken those planes.

Another helicopter outfit I used to fly with, the owner kept the keys in the mags. He said if someone could start it they could have it, "It's insured". I wasn't there long.....strangely they are still in business.
 
Woah! No telling what was going through her mind when she took off. 500 foot ceilings and I would question taking off IFR in a 152 no way in hell I am doing it VFR. Heck I probably wouldn't do it in a helicopter with those ceilings.

Not excusing or defending her actions but just trying to make sense of what seems like a logical decision. Sadly the one she didn't make.

There are all sorts of possibilities here in regards to her view of the weather. She might have thought any number of things, all of them wrong of course.

They were reporting 8 miles Viz and maybe she misjudged the ceiling? Sun would have been pretty low at that point and ceilings are hard to judge in fading light.

Then she might have been overwhelmed with everything being in English and didn't get an official weather report and just eyeballed it, did a "yeah, I think thats a 1000 feet". Probably had a serious case of I gotta get some airtime. Hadn't flown in a long time, couldn't wait a day to fly with a CFI and snuck in on her own.

Cost her, her life.

But whats worse is holy carp, a 400 hour plus pilot should know better. I think who ever signed her off for her commercial, both the CFI and DPE need 709 rides. This is why I hate these pilot mills and on staff DPEs. I've seen some of the worst pilots get a pass from on staff DPEs where other DPEs would have failed the student in the oral.

I know a school that every student from the school gets a pass but no one from outside passes first time. Guess who owns the school......
 
av8tr1 said:
Woah! No telling what was going through her mind when she took off. 500 foot ceilings and I would question taking off IFR in a 152 no way in hell I am doing it VFR. Heck I probably wouldn't do it in a helicopter with those ceilings.

Not excusing or defending her actions but just trying to make sense of what seems like a logical decision. Sadly the one she didn't make.

There are all sorts of possibilities here in regards to her view of the weather. She might have thought any number of things, all of them wrong of course.

They were reporting 8 miles Viz and maybe she misjudged the ceiling? Sun would have been pretty low at that point and ceilings are hard to judge in fading light.

Then she might have been overwhelmed with everything being in English and didn't get an official weather report and just eyeballed it, did a "yeah, I think thats a 1000 feet". Probably had a serious case of I gotta get some airtime. Hadn't flown in a long time, couldn't wait a day to fly with a CFI and snuck in on her own.

Cost her, her life.

But whats worse is holy carp, a 400 hour plus pilot should know better. I think who ever signed her off for her commercial, both the CFI and DPE need 709 rides. This is why I hate these pilot mills and on staff DPEs. I've seen some of the worst pilots get a pass from on staff DPEs where other DPEs would have failed the student in the oral.

I know a school that every student from the school gets a pass but no one from outside passes first time. Guess who owns the school......
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Personally I think DPEs should be prohibited from acting as Examiner for their own customers. If they want to operate a flight school thats one thing, but performing checkrides for their own customers, many of whom will have just spent thousands of dollars with them, just rubs me wrong.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Is it that hard to understand? I have trouble understanding how 3 pilots with 20,000 hrs among them stalled a widebody jetliner and kept it stalled for the entire plunge from FL350 down to the Atlantic ocean. Or stalling a perfectly flyable Q400 outside Buffalo. Those I have trouble understanding when you consider they were ATP-rated or qualified pilots. One private pilot renting a Cessna 152 and getting caught up in a bad situation? That's not the tough one to understand.
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@Cherokee_Cruiser , about everbody on this board is well north of 400 hours with their instrument tickets, and we've all been in scary situations (my hand is certainly up). But I don't think ANY of us were as situationally UNaware and unable to communicate as this pilot was on the audio recording. Heaven help me if that's how I'm remembered the next time I fly into a crapstorm, but I've have vacuum failures in IMC, and engine losses, and lightning strikes at night and all the rest, but I wasn't saying "Hello...?" I'm not disrespecting this deceased pilot, I'm just saying that if she had 400 flight hours, they weren't the 400 hours like the rest of us logged.
 
tomokc said:
@Cherokee_Cruiser , about everbody on this board is well north of 400 hours with their instrument tickets, and we've all been in scary situations (my hand is certainly up). But I don't think ANY of us were as situationally UNaware and unable to communicate as this pilot was on the audio recording. Heaven help me if that's how I'm remembered the next time I fly into a crapstorm, but I've have vacuum failures in IMC, and engine losses, and lightning strikes at night and all the rest, but I wasn't saying "Hello...?" I'm not disrespecting this deceased pilot, I'm just saying that if she had 400 flight hours, they weren't the 400 hours like the rest of us logged.
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Not sure how her time was logged but she definitely sounded like she was out of it, as in completely overwhelmed at the situation she was presented. The brain does weird things in an emergency and for some people, communication is the first one that gets muddled.
 
jspeed87 said:
I think the FAA needs to update the PTS on all levels and make it more modern. More SBT and ADM.
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No.

The FAA needs do update their oversight when it comes to Asian puppy mils in the U.S. The United States has facilitated and profited on Asian students, and it is the reason why Asian pilots have a bad rep, and the reason that we are having issues with regard to their basic airmanship, their decision making, their knowledge, and their ability to fly a big shiny jet. I am so sick of this crap. She was dead by the time she made the first distress call. Hell, she didn't even know how to communicate properly, how are we to expect that she would fly a plane any better? The flight school should be shut down, and the instructor, and the DPE that gave her the tickets should all be in jail. I fail to believe that this pilot wasn't allowed to fly solo, and did so without permission, I very highly doubt that. However, having experience training these types of students, I have an easier time believing she was a several hundred hour mess who was passed through training because the revenue stream needs to continue.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Is it that hard to understand? I have trouble understanding how 3 pilots with 20,000 hrs among them stalled a widebody jetliner and kept it stalled for the entire plunge from FL350 down to the Atlantic ocean. Or stalling a perfectly flyable Q400 outside Buffalo. Those I have trouble understanding when you consider they were ATP-rated or qualified pilots. One private pilot renting a Cessna 152 and getting caught up in a bad situation? That's not the tough one to understand.
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Ok cool. Can we look at the the fatality difference from Asian carrier accidents over the last year, verses the world in the last 5 years? Lemme guess that fatalities on Asian carriers is more.
 
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