Plane down in PTK

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Pilot Fighter said:
Dangerous CRM attitude? This is going to be interesting. Explain my dangerous attitude, Mister CRM class graduate. Yes, we are all capable of making mistakes. Should we all agree that we are ALL capable of making this mistake? Is that your point? What are the odds this crash was the result of an arithmetic error?

On a constructive note, I rarely rent, do schools or FBOs attempt to screen for bad ideas like this? Even if MTW was within limits, shouldn't somebody be enforcing a stricter standard for low-time pilots?
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Probably the same odds of it being a W&B issue. Correct me if Im wrong, but everything is suspect this early on in an investigation. Hell, an escaped wallabee may have leaped up into the prop for all we know at this point.
 
SeanD said:
Probably the same odds of it being a W&B issue. Correct me if Im wrong, but everything is suspect this early on in an investigation. Hell, an escaped wallabee may have leaped up into the prop for all we know at this point.
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I was suggesting there was no weight and balance worksheet, as opposed to a worksheet with errors. It seems that some on this forum would like to just defer any conversation until the final FAA determination is made.
 
Pilot Fighter and chrisreedrules - this is what some of your comments make me do:
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Pilot Fighter said:
On a constructive note, I rarely rent, do schools or FBOs attempt to screen for bad ideas like this? Even if MTW was within limits, shouldn't somebody be enforcing a stricter standard for low-time pilots?
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Some, yes. One of a handful of Really Nice Things I can say about the FBO I occasionally rent from is that for more than two souls on board (172, 182) you have to are supposed to have paperwork to prove the airplane is loaded within weight and CG, and can make the planned takeoffs and landings given current conditions.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
I was suggesting there was no weight and balance worksheet, as opposed to a worksheet with errors. It seems that some on this forum would like to just defer any conversation until the final FAA determination is made.
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Of course there can be a discussion, just don't expect everyone to follow. Most pilots hate to be wrong and speculating on an aircraft accident is like shooting pool with a rope.
 
SeanD said:
Of course there can be a discussion, just don't expect everyone to follow. Most pilots hate to be wrong and speculating on an aircraft accident is like shooting pool with a rope.
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(A not impossible, but rather imprecise endeavor.)
 
I was single pilot (1200hours) ferrying a Skipper out of Stead (ele 5046' DA was 6500' that morning as I recall) in the early am, did the weight and balance and performance charts and should have been completely fine. (It was my first flight in the aircraft.) I found myself in a situation where I was glad the terrain was falling away in front of me and pretty level for miles. By the time I realized we weren't going to climb well, it was too late to try to land and stop before the end of the runway. I flew around very carefully with shallow turns and finally climbed above the tower. I found an updraft to help me climb. I stayed in that by doing slow circles through the updraft and finally was able to climb to altitude and continue to Boise. That thing was anemic, but according to the performance charts should have performed much better. I took less fuel after that first leg and also was using lower altitude airports so felt that I could safely predict the outcome of the next flights. I was able to deliver the aircraft to Calgary and was not surprised again by that aircraft.

It caught me by surprise that morning and the SECOND you say this could never happen to you, it is immediately more likely that it will.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
I hope that, not IF, but WHEN, you make a stupid mistake, it isn't fatal, and you aren't discussed callously on a web board.

We all make mistakes, and we all made huge mistakes when we were new pilots. I know that I'm only here today because my stupid mistakes happened to not kill me. So...please, lay off the accusatory tone.
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I've made plenty and been lucky enough to walk away in one piece. I've also witnessed plenty of others make stupid mistakes / choices and not walk away. I've been dealing with more than my fair share of pvt pilots making really stupid mistakes lately so I've just about had my fill.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
It seems that some on this forum would like to just defer any conversation until the final FAA determination is made.
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It's actually the NTSB that makes a probable cause statement concerning accidents.
 
He was a sharp kid, not stupid at all. Very precise and on his ways towards the Naval Academy. We lived in the same dorm this last year and hung out on numerous occasions. This speculation is not productive. We owe it to him to at least wait for some findings by the NTSB before tarnishing his name.
 
wmuPHIL said:
He was a sharp kid, not stupid at all. Very precise and on his ways towards the Naval Academy. We lived in the same dorm this last year and hung out on numerous occasions. This speculation is not productive. We owe it to him to at least wait for some findings by the NTSB before tarnishing his name.
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Even otherwise smart guys can do stupid things (or maybe I'm just dumb...anyway...), which is why if you MUST speculate, you should do so privately.

"Yep, could have been me."
 
Pilot Fighter said:
Dangerous CRM attitude? This is going to be interesting. Explain my dangerous attitude, Mister CRM class graduate. Yes, we are all capable of making mistakes. Should we all agree that we are ALL capable of making this mistake? Is that your point? What are the odds this crash was the result of an arithmetic error?

On a constructive note, I rarely rent, do schools or FBOs attempt to screen for bad ideas like this? Even if MTW was within limits, shouldn't somebody be enforcing a stricter standard for low-time pilots?
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First of all, we don't know it was a weight problem. He said he was heavy, but maybe he was having an engine output problem, and misinterpreted the lack of performance. We just don't know.

Second, there are no errors that you are immune from. None. Zero. The faster you realize that, the faster you will become a safer pilot with better CRM.

I think the reason that you get such strong reactions from some of us is that you come across as if you are somehow immune to stupidity. In my experience, people who think they are above any type of error are the ones you have to watch out for.

Maybe we are all reading you incorrectly. This is a web board, after all. But you come across negatively on these threads about aircraft accidents.
 
"If the pilot did something stupid, then he was stupid and it's his fault."

This is a tautology, i.e. a statement that pretends to convey some meaningful conclusion that is actually just a product of its own assumptions.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
Of course, you are correct. I always thought it a bit odd for the FAA to assemble the evidence with the NTSB preparing the report.
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It doesn't work that way either.

There are group parties to the investigation. The FAA is just a singular group party.

It makes perfect sense.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
First of all, we don't know it was a weight problem. He said he was heavy, but maybe he was having an engine output problem, and misinterpreted the lack of performance. We just don't know.

Second, there are no errors that you are immune from. None. Zero. The faster you realize that, the faster you will become a safer pilot with better CRM.

I think the reason that you get such strong reactions from some of us is that you come across as if you are somehow immune to stupidity. In my experience, people who think they are above any type of error are the ones you have to watch out for.

Maybe we are all reading you incorrectly. This is a web board, after all. But you come across negatively on these threads about aircraft accidents.
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I'm so pleased you are concerned with helping me mature as a pilot.

I'm not sure what happened on the way to the store. At some point, pilots became politically correct • afraid to trust their experience and make informed opinions on known, yet limited evidence, for fear of being wrong. I've been on military accident boards, this chat board is not an accident board, we can have opinions. When presented with additional evidence, we are free to modify our opinions and theories.

It is interesting that I've been categorized as arrogant. I'll tell you what arrogance is, thinking pilots are special, deserving of special consideration and judged using a standard divorced from that of the rest of so society.

If a driver fails to look both ways before pulling out into traffic and kills half a dozen people, it is socially acceptable to publicly condemn such reckless behavior. Do we examine the factors that contributed to the reckless behavior or do we focus unapologetically on the known facts? However, when it comes to the reckless behavior of pilots, that's different. We are touched by the hands of God and what we do is so special it should make us immune to criticism because what we do is so complicated. We must consider EVERYTHING and we must refrain from voicing opinions until we know EVERYTHING.

Low-time pilot, Cessna 172, four adults, hot and humid day, radio report suggesting overweight condition, four dead. If an experienced pilot can't form and voice a preliminary opinion based on this, I guess we can talk about flight bags, and sunglasses, and iPad apps. Most of us have a pretty good idea of what happened in this case. We could be wrong, but we've seen this scenario play out so many times should we remain silent?

I've also observed this "equality of errors" philosophy that cripples intelligent discourse. Here's what I've seen on this site. First, because we are all capable of errors, we shouldn't identify, discuss, or criticize the mistakes of others. Second, all mistakes are equal, with none deserving no more scorn than others. Nowhere else in our lives is this the standard. In my mind, ignoring weight and balance is homicidal behavior while stalling and and crashing is most often poor piloting.

Guess what, I've been guilty of poor piloting but I don't ignore weight and balance considerations. I am very confident in saying that I will never ignore weight and balance - it's fundamental. I put it in the same category and not looking both ways before pulling out into traffic.

No, I'm not immune from making many mistakes, but I'm immune from making some mistakes. I'm not going to drink and fly. If you can't tell me this is a mistake you are immune from, you don't belong in the sky. There are a category of mistakes that we all have to agree are fundamental, errors of judgement so great that we have to be confident that we are immune from. I won't drink and fly. I won't takeoff without clearance. Draw the line where you like. I make mistakes. I learn from those mistakes and the mistakes of others.

Have the balls to call a spade a spade. Take some responsibility.
 
Since I'm on my phone I'll respond to your post once I get home, but you misunderstand.

I don't have a major problem with discussing the accident, though that can be troublesome. I have a problem with you judging the pilot when we don't know what happened. Discuss the facts, but keep your holier-than-thou judgements to yourself.

Even if he took off knowing he was overweight, we don't know if he was trained that its not a big deal if you're "a little over."

There are hundreds of possibilities that would reduce his culpability, and you're attitude is just plain wrong in the world of "just culture." Read a book.
 
Not adding to speculation, but throwing out a "what if" to those that automatically assume there was negligence. What about a partial loss of power at some point shortly after take off. At close to gross and hot day it wouldn't have to be even a 50% loss to ruin your flight. Not sure exactly what happened but I lost partial power on take off once and it was difficult not to try to nurse it along as opposed to simply acting as if I lost it all (which is what my grandpa said to do). Now, I lost enough that it was noticeable without seeing the engine instruments, and it was enough that it wouldn't have flown - but I can certainly see how a partial loss of power would make one rethink their "just go straight ahead and land" reflex and start thinking "maybe I can nurse this think around" or "maybe I can nurse a 180 out of this" (which is why my Grandpa said to assume it was all gone if it happened).

Not speculating, but giving an example - like Bee did - of a situation that could screw with your head. Now, it could simply be a cut and dried deal, but maybe not.
 
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