Pitch. Power. Trim.

[Douglas]

Hey Hacker.
Is this why you don't power for altitude on final?

 

[Douglas]

I just disagree with some of the CFI's above that having a target or a reference prevents you from getting a "feel" for the aircraft.

I really don't think they meant that instruments shouldn't be referenced.
Covered instrument flying and pure instrument flying are extremes and no CFI would recommend doing 100% of either. Maybe you don't think we agree here, but from how I read it, we are.


-----
It is starting to feel like "rag on FAA flight instructor" day.

 

[zmiller4]

L-39 Driver,

If all you're looking for in an instructor is someone to agree with everything you say (it looks like that was the point of your thread here), then you're not going to be a very safe pilot.

 

[MikeD]

Are you serious? I had my USAF Pilot Slot before you even knew what an aircraft looked like.

Ok, that has what to do with your idiotic questions and failure to listen the KISS principle?

I eventually graduated with multiple technical degrees, so I think I had the priorities set correctly. You lay a Dash 1 in front of a civilian Cadet and you had better have your light bill paid, because the lights will be on 7 days a week! Heck, we lived at the detachment once the manuals got there. Our Commander of Cadets was a former B-52 pilot, not a paper pusher, so he knew what Cadets needed and he knew what would help them. We loved that man - we would have done anything for him becasue we KNEW that he would have done anything for us - and he did. How do you think I got in the left seat of a C-5B Galaxy? How do you think I got to sit inside those Tweet/Talon classrooms at Columbus?

I'm sure your CoC was a great guy, doesn't change the fact that you're attempting to run before you can crawl, and confusing yourself in the process.

I did everything exactly the way I was supposed to, in order to eventually become an Eagle Driver, but family ended up changing my career and my life.

I'm not green to this business - I've just been away for a very long time.

And who is begrudging that? But with no PPL, you ARE green to the business. And curiously, ou knew you were going to fly Eagle's how? Or I take it that was just a goal.

I was USAF pilot qualified while you were probably coming out of elementary school [possibly] - if not a lot sooner. I don't know how things worked were you got yoru Pilot Slot, but where I cam from you got into UPT by obtaining your Cadet Wings. Graduating, was icing on the cake! Are you kidding me! At Detachment 085, that's how things were done. I turned down an appointment to the USAF Academy, for family reasons [not to be discussed here]. I later had to give up my Pilot's Slot [well earned] for those same family reasons. It was the most painful thing I have ever had to voluntarily do.

No one is questioning any reasons for not taking a slot. Only your attitude as someone who hasn't even flown for his private, and is attmepting to rush towards flying his private jet, or whatever. Read your own posts. And when you had a flight slot is immaterial; fact is, you didn't attend UPT; so to be stating authoritatively what Tweet pilots should do or know..is, well, idiotic.

The Dash 1s, were to give us incentive and insight into what would be expected of us academically. Not to turn us into pilots over night, of course. We wanted to go into UPT having some idea of what we were getting ourselves into and to get as much advantage as possible. That's exactly what a combat pilot does - gain the advantage. That's what we were trying to do. I have an old friend who ended up retiring out of the F-111, sometime after having flown in the first Gulf War. He told me that the work our old Cadet Commander has us doing back at 085, actually helped him in the initial weeks of both the Tweet and the Talon phases of training. So, I know having the manuals actually helped some of us.

Again, thanks for the insight on what combat pilots do. Yes, the manuals are good; but the amount of effort being put into them when you haven't even walked into the door of UPT, is akin to what you're doing here.....trying to run before you can even stand. you're just too blind to see it.

I don't think anyone with at least two brain cells remaining in their head, in at least a partially functining neurosynaptic network, thinks that I wrote anything convincing them that I was C-5B qualified. That should have been crystal clear to anyone with real flight experience, especially in the Air Force.

....umm, speaking authoritatively about the ops of an aircraft when you have a total of a few hours in it, is what you wrote. Go back and re-read.

I think you've missed the point a long time ago. And, quite frankly, I'm not even sure you ever understood the question to begin with.

Thats funny coming from someone who asks a question, then argues to high heaven with those that give him the answer.

There was an T-38C [you know what that is don't you] that recently went down due to pilot error. Are you sure you were not the IP who trained that poor pilot.

There were a couple of them, one of the IPs who I knew. That's probably one of the most low-life jabs you could take. Very classy statement there; especially from a pogue who never made it that far. Is there even a point to this last statement? If so, I'd love to know it. And I'm familiar with the C, though I have all my 38 hours in the A.

Let me say it again: Light Single Engine Trainer -----> to -----> Twin Engine Single Pilot Certified Light Business Jet in 2 years.

That means, my training must [by definition] be unlike most others. That's why I'm asking these questions [FIRST] and not out wasting my time learning bad habits that only have to be unlearned down the road.

You don't seem to get the premise, here.

What I get is with your attitude and extremely narrow focus, you're going to be often behind the aircraft, trying to find which formula works, instead of actually flying. Seen your type.....more like Light Single Engine Trainer ----->Twin Engine single Pilot----->lkely smoking hole in the ground somewhere.

Blah, blah, blah. At what point will you drop your faulty ego long enough to actually have an epiphany about what the underlying premise is here? Quite frankly, this thread is not about your and your Tank Killer. This thread is about ME NOT KILLING MYSELF BECAUSE I DID SOMETHING STUPID AFTER HAVING BEEN GIVEN BAD INSTRUCTION BY AN ARROGANT INSTURCTOR WITH AN ATTITUDE SIMILAR TO YOURS.

That's what this thread is about. It is about me staying ALIVE.

Wake up!

"Blah blah blah"? That about sums up your attitude as a student. One that can't listen. You want to talk about ego? I'll be reading about you in an NTSB report my friend. I've been doing this business far too long, both civil and military, and have seen more than I want to of your kind. I just hope you don't take someone else with you.

What's really sad is, with your closed-mindedness and ego, you couldn't even understand the very real and apparent point I made with my missile story. Sad.

I can't believe that under-structure seeking brains like yours are allowed to go anywhere near an Thunderbolt, much less a 117. You have no idea what my total approach to flight training would be, yet you've got me pegged right down to that mythical figure that you seemed to know so well in your last crack about me.

My under-structure brain is called flexibility, and that's gotten me through 3 tours of combat, amongst the stateside flying, both civil and military. I have no idea? Mister, you have ZERO idea what you don't know, about flying or otherwise. And you sure as hell are talking out your ass if you think you even know what it takes to go to a Hog or 117...or any airplane for that matter.

Good you never went to UPT, you never would've graduated, with your attitude.

You have been given one question among many questions that I have yet to ask anyone and bingo - just like that, you've got me all mapped out. You presume way too much, my dear friend - way too much. Assumption is the mother of all screw-ups. Stop assuming everything damn thing you can't possibly know about me, or my situation.

No assuming here...just a final impression from a good number of posts you've made, all with the same attitude and lack of ability to apply KISS.

No one was lecturing you, but you did allow your ego to pull your pants down in public. Thanks for the worthless contribution to this thread and for being a total waste of my valuable time.

Radar contact terminated 10 miles from nowhere...frequency changed approved. Have a nice day.

Lecture....hmmmm.

Read this: You tell me:

"My goodness - listen to what you guys are saying in essence. Fly the C-5 Galaxy by the seat of your pants? Sorry. I've flown the C-5. How many of you can say that. SOTP simply would not work with that aircraft. "

Telling experienced pilots when SOTP can and can't be used, when you have the square root of piss-all in flying experience...not even a PPL? ZERO situational awareness pal.

I rest my case. You're the one wasting time, if you don't modify your "methodical approach". Crawl first, then walk..that's all that's being advised to you....that, and keep it simple.

Get those concepts down first, hoss, and you might live to make it to your shiny jet.

 

[MikeD]

I really don't think they meant that instruments shouldn't be referenced.
Covered instrument flying and pure instrument flying are extremes and no CFI would recommend doing 100% of either. Maybe you don't think we agree here, but from how I read it, we are.


-----
It is starting to feel like "rag on FAA flight instructor" day.

No rag on CFI day, it's all good. I think what we're discovering is that no one answer in the pitch/power debate covers all situations and all aircraft. As was stated earlier in the thread....pitch controls both, power controls both; depending on the situation. Sounds about right.

 

[Roger, Roger]

I dun' know nuffin' 'bout flyin' yer bigboy jet planes.
I posted what I know 'bout the littluns earlier in here.
But what do I know...I just fly 'em for a livin'.

 

[Approach Control]

Ok, that has what to do with your idiotic questions and failure to listen the KISS principle?

If you were any more a sad representation of our Armed Services, I would have to puke on my LCD flat panel. I can't believe the level of pure, unadulterated carelessness and cluelessness coming from one self-appointed Combat Pilot having flown three (3) tours and how many sorties in combat. Give me a break. You are the quintessential mouthpiece in my ear - annoying and intemperate to the hilt and clueless about why or how you got that way, most likely.

You talk down to people like you were some kind of master of the universe pilot. If you were all that, then you would be a TPS graduate by now and/or a regular at Nellis either 64th or 65th - take your pick. So, sell it to some else who does not know any better - you don't know anything about me, pretending that you do is proof positive that you just don't get it.

Don't insult my intelligence with pretending to know something about me, or my plans. I think one of the issues here in this thread, is a little jealousy that I detect merely because of my ability to do what I'm doing. I think a good shrink could nail that one in a heart beat around here. Rest assured my fine feathered Tank Killer Driver, I have worked my rear-end off to get where I am in life to be able to afford the things that I want and/or need. So, don't feel "put out" about all that.

If you are willing to lay down the routine 18 to 36 hour work days, week after week, month after month and year after year, to join the top 1% of the professional ranks in your particular discipline around the world, then you too will be able to have the same options available to you, as I have available to me.

Stop the hate.

I would guess KISS would be your middle name. You have successfully clustered this thread, as you have done in other threads, so this seems to fit your MO. Maybe I should not take that to heart [this is online after all] but instead just realize that it is your ego that make you so deaf and unable to "hear" a premise when it is placed directly between your ears [on purpose].

You STILL don't get what this thread was all about, do you. [lol] Sad, too. The possibilities could have been endless, but instead - they are now nonexistent.

The rest of your post was off-topic nonsequitur hopelessness, thus I won't bother to retire it to the galley of shame where it belongs.

You had better bring a bit more intellect, if you are going to argue with me.

Good night, Chuck Yeager.

 

[SteveC]

I'm more than a little bit lost on what your true motivation for posting here might be.

Seriously.

 

[mshunter]

Which Eagle pilot are you refering to?

My earlier post had nothing to do with "not worrying about lift". It had to do with how jets with very thin wings fly on final approach, when on the back side of the L/Dmax curve. In order to maintain the correct AOA, as well as make the airplane touch down where you need it to, you have to use the stick to pitch for an aim point and use the throttles to maintain your airspeed. The techniques and theoretical discussions posed in this thread are very interesting -- but they don't change the way that these two particular airplanes are flown.

Again, if you try to "pitch for airspeed", all you will do is end up landing short and slow or long and fast. If you try to "power for altitude", you will end up....probably anywhere but where you want to land, and probably with a gear strut up through the wing if you're lucky.

The point of the post was that these hard and fast rules that many CFIs like to teach as Gospel really aren't. That there are at least two airplanes I've flown that don't work that way, and I have to suspect that there are others that I have no knowledge of. Many CFIs can't seem to get their head outside the world of a single engine general aviation aircraft.

I'm actually very concerned about lift in both the Eagle and the Talon. Much of the flying in many different flight regimes is performed in direct reference to AOA. Because of the wide potential differences in landing weights, AOA is the only reliable way to set the correct final approach and landing speed (we back it up by computing an actual speed using rules of thumb). When dogfighting, we only know when we are maximum performing in a turn (and in an accelerated stall) based on G and AOA.

FYI, I think it's safe to say NONE of us will ever get the chance to fly any F-anything.

 

[Kristie]

[modhat] I think the attitude needs to go...that is not how we converse in the living room...please conduct yourself in a more upstanding manner as per the rules of the website. [/modhat]

 

[MikeD]

If you were any more a sad representation of our Armed Services, I would have to puke on my LCD flat panel. I can't believe the level of pure, unadulterated carelessness and cluelessness coming from one self-appointed Combat Pilot having flown three (3) tours and how many sorties in combat. Give me a break. You are the quintessential mouthpiece in my ear - annoying and intemperate to the hilt and clueless about why or how you got that way, most likely.

And you have done what with a military career besides be a cadet who thinks he knows FAR more than he does? Carelessness and cluelessness? Read your own posts, they reek of them.

You talk down to people like you were some kind of master of the universe pilot. If you were all that, then you would be a TPS graduate by now and/or a regular at Nellis either 64th or 65th - take your pick. So, sell it to some else who does not know any better - you don't know anything about me, pretending that you do is proof positive that you just don't get it.

I'm just a regular Joe. What does being a grad of TPS or in one of the aggressor squadrons have to do with anything? Talk about clueless, didn't know any other assignment in the AF was worthless than those above. This is getting comical by the minute. And yes, you DON'T know any better. Worse, you're too clueless to even realize how much you don't know. You're right, I don't know you; and from what I've seen so far, don't really want to. That you tell me how Tweet pilots should be and what they should remember, is funny; and further saying who should or shouldn't be qualified to fly certain jets in the AF ....to the guy thats done it, is even more funny. Again, I've done that, you haven't. It would be like me telling a Fedex pilot how to do his job effectively....when I've never done it! Is any of this making sense to you?

Don't insult my intelligence with pretending to know something about me, or my plans. I think one of the issues here in this thread, is a little jealousy that I detect merely because of my ability to do what I'm doing. I think a good shrink could nail that one in a heart beat around here. Rest assured my fine feathered Tank Killer Driver, I have worked my rear-end off to get where I am in life to be able to afford the things that I want and/or need. So, don't feel "put out" about all that.

You just said I don't know you and I agreed that I don't want to; so how could I be jealous of a UPT wannabe with no PPL who thinks he can tell guys who have been there, done that, how it's done? And I don't just mean me. Again, read your posts. I don't know what to feel "put out" about. I'm starting to think you're seriously delusional.

If you are willing to lay down the routine 18 to 36 hour work days, week after week, month after month and year after year, to join the top 1% of the professional ranks in your particular discipline around the world, then you too will be able to have the same options available to you, as I have available to me.

May I ask how you work a 36 hour work day, week after week? I don't even know, or care, what it is you do; but it sounds to me you're over-worked with that kind of schedule. FWIW, I work to live, not live to work.

Stop the hate.

I don't hate you; the only hate I saw was your low-blow jab to a dead T-38 crew, one of which I knew. What the point of that was, I still don't know. I just call you on your extremely low SA and lousy, know-it-all attitude. That and the tunnel vision. But hey...not my problem. It's your grave you're digging.

I would guess KISS would be your middle name. You have successfully clustered this thread, as you have done in other threads, so this seems to fit your MO. Maybe I should not take that to heart [this is online after all] but instead just realize that it is your ego that make you so deaf and unable to "hear" a premise when it is placed directly between your ears [on purpose].

Again....you have no clue what you don't know. But since I'm here to help, I'll do just that. KISS is a principle by which successful pilots work with. Stands for Keep It Simple Stupid. Ie--don't make crap harder than it needs to be. Reading through your posts, you have a lot of difficulty with that; which is why your success curve in aviation will be far steeper than it needs to be. KISS, one of the most basic of flying principles.....maybe you can break that down into one of your idiotic calculus equations and analyze it every way from Sunday. You really ought to listen more and speak less, and even better, listen to those that know.

You STILL don't get what this thread was all about, do you. [lol] Sad, too. The possibilities could have been endless, but instead - they are now nonexistent.

The rest of your post was off-topic nonsequitur hopelessness, thus I won't bother to retire it to the galley of shame where it belongs.

Read your posts...they are idiotic drivel and a lesson in futility in trying to get any concept through your robotic mindset. I don't know how to better describe it.

You had better bring a bit more intellect, if you are going to argue with me.

Good night, Chuck Yeager.

I haven't seen an ounce of intellect in your posts, so have zero to argue against. And BTW, you conveniently glossed over the "lecturing" of us concerning C-5 ops, USAF ops, T-37 pilot habits, Seat of the Pants flying and how/when it's accomplished (when you don't even have a PPL and no flying experience!!), techniques and procedures for operations of heavy aircraft (the C-5 that you've flown and none of us have). You've done NONE of these things and have ZERO experience doing them and ZERO hours flying, yet you come in here to tell people how they're supposed to be done. Can you logically defend that?

And you accuse me of having no intellect? That's amusing.

I think I'll call over to one of the Vegas sports books, and open a line on which NTSB AAR number you will be......

 

[jrh]

The point was lost on all but three (3) people who entered this discussion.

...

For the three (3) who "got it," Thank You!

...

It is to you three (3) that I say, good luck with your flying careers!

My only question now is...

Am I one of the lucky three (3)?

I sure hope I am.

 

[Cessna414JJB]

My only question now is...

Am I one of the lucky three (3)?

I sure hope I am.

Sometimes I wonder about the true value of such awards.
They can be highly subjective, not carrying much prestige or simpy come from the wrong corner of the field. :cwm27:

Wow, I flew for two days, am tired like a dog and come back to a thread that drips of negativity. Even Mods had to chime in.

A fact seems to be that very rich people with very ambitious goals do not frequent forums. They do not ask the public for advise and guidance.
How could they? The public struggles, while they are not.
If they have the money they claim to have, they will go out and buy the right human resource to get the job done. No history lessons, no self explaining, nothing of all that. "Here is what I need, how can I get it done?"

I have sold luxury cars, luxury airplanes and other fun stuff.
Never have I experienced such a lapse of style and class.

The discussion serves no other purpose than simple unintelligent entertainment by now. So, we should all wipe the puke off our incredibly expensive flat screen LCD's, laugh it off and rest assured we have been:

...Trolled...
:yeahthat:
and good night!​

*Edit:* It is hard to realize that buying the horse before buying the saddle is not easy to do for people who can waste time, money and efforts.
Crawl comes before walk, horse comes before saddle, small steps come before big jump. None of this has truly reached OP. Ergo: Waste of time.

 

[Hacker15e]

Hey Hacker.
Is this why you don't power for altitude on final?

Si.

Are you serious? I had my USAF Pilot Slot before you even knew what an aircraft looked like.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but you must realize -- even in light of this comment -- that there is a Grand Canyon's worth of difference between "having a pilot slot" and being a winged military pilot. There is no comparison.

There was an T-38C [you know what that is don't you] that recently went down due to pilot error. Are you sure you were not the IP who trained that poor pilot.

Are you referencing the one that crashed in 2007 from Randolph? If so, I'm curious why you think that is a relevant point.

 

[jrh]

Sometimes I wonder about the true value of such awards.
They can be highly subjective, not carrying much prestige or simpy come from the wrong corner of the field. :cwm27:

Sorry, I should have put the tag at the end of my post.

I don't really care if I made the top three (3) spots or not.

 

[Ian_J]

I worked a 36 hour day once... it was so long it felt like a day and a half. (rimshot!)

So, my question is this: Would I be stepping too far out in front of my Instructor, if I asked him/her to provide me with pitch/power/trim settings for all phases of normal flight in the aircraft that he/she is giving me instruction? [take-off, climb, cruise, descent, approach and landing]

Not at all! Ask away. Just be prepared for some not-to-technical answers seeing that you'll be doing basic VFR flying. For example, the transition from climb to cruise might look like:

Pitch: One finger below the horizon
Power: Reduce to 18oo rpm.
Trim: Roll Trim forward 2 complete turns.
Then make fine adjustments.

I was thinking that I could put these on a small card, laminate the card and then attach it somewhere to my knee-board, so that each time my IP asks me to do something with the aircraft, I'll at least know immediately how to configure the pitch/power/trim in order to get into the flight attitude requested by my IP.

You could... but most configurations have similarities. In a trainer it is incredibly easy to memorize the "flow." Some chair flying should get you up to speed, and in turn make your time in the cockpit less busy looking at cards.

At least this way [I theorize], the basic flight segments [T/O, climb, cruise, descent, approach and landing] can be reduced to flying by the numbers, without a whole lot of time and energy spent trying to 'remember' the how's and why's.

Sure, these things become rote real quickly.

It would seem to me that my flight training would roll a lot smoother if I knew these values right from the outset for the aircraft that I'm training with - regardless of what that aircraft might be, no?

Absolutely. Your instructor should talk over these values before you learn a new maneuver, whether it be a simple take off and climb, or a chandelle later down the road.

If so, how do I ask for this data, without seeming too forward or too presumptuous? I can't just go up and experiment with it on my own [LOL] until I discover these values for myself.

I'd expect this stuff to be talked about on the ground anyway, but if not, yeah, simply ask.

_________________________

Changing subjects - I've seen MikeD around these forums for a few years now, and had the opportunity to meet him face to face. He's a good guy, and a good Officer. He's been a tremendous asset to this forum. You certainly don't have to like him, but I'd appreciate it if you apologized for speculating his instructing skills caused a crash where service members died.

 

[Cessna414JJB]

Changing subjects - I've seen MikeD around these forums for a few years now, and had the opportunity to meet him face to face. He's a good guy, and a good Officer. He's been a tremendous asset to this forum. You certainly don't have to like him, but I'd appreciate it if you apologized for speculating his instructing skills caused a crash where service members died.

Ian & all others,

I have never met MikeD, nor any other member of this great forum.
Yet, I doubt we will read an apology from OP for his behavior.
If OP is still lurking I would like to point out that I believe an apology is

DUE!​

What I think we will see, is a thread that just dies and goes on to prove that, if people do not get their desired responses they may easily revert to being just a jerk with no style or class. I found the last insult towards Mike reason enough to report the post, but did not do so, as it would have been ignored anyways. I regret having given this 'Gentleman' the benefit of the doubt by trying to respond to his questions.

Cheers,

 

[Douglas]

Si.

What does that even mean?
Dang you keep me guessing.

 

[Cessna414JJB]

What does that even mean?
Dang you keep me guessing.

Si is generally known as the Italian word for YES.
I use it all the time. Si!
Si?... Si!

 

[ASpilot2be]

What does that even mean?
Dang you keep me guessing.

NVM. Cessna414JJB got it.