Pinnacle???

kellwolf said:
So, essentially, you're paying JetU to teach you how to play a specific Sega game really well. Honestly, that's it. Once you're out of training, like it or not, your classmates that have real world experience are gonna be leaps and bounds ahead of you. Don't think for a minute that you've got it made once you pass the checkride. You've still got OE and year's worth of probation to go through. Not only are the check airmen you fly with on OE evaluating you, but periodically, the line CAs you fly with will be evaluating you, and THEY can be a LOT harsher. I've talked to a couple of guys that actually put "Shouldn't be behind the wheel of a car much less in an airplane" on some eval forms of probationary FOs. A lot of guys relax once they've gotten through OE (assuming they get THAT far) and wind up getting smacked by a heavy dose of reality.
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I'm a serious guy, an engineer at heart. I always strive to do the best I can, and if I mess up somewhere, I always want to learn and fix my mistake to not repeat it. I'm completely open to input from anyone I fly with. You're right, it's no easy cake walk once you do the checkride and IOE. I know I have to earn the Captain's respect (and trust) everyday in the cockpit (and for that matter, every time with a new captain) for the probationary first year, and for years beyond that. In the cockpit (and at the airport), I don't have any ego, and I have a open-willing-to-take-criticism/critique from anyone I fly with. With the right attitude and mindset, I hope to be successful.


JetU does one thing: it gets your ready for the training environment. It does NOTHING towards making you a valuable, qualified FO. If an engine goes out, a thrust reverser deploys or the stab trim runs away, I have no doubt they'd be all over it. If there's a passenger in the back having a heart attack in a thunderstorm, the CA looks at the guy and says "Well, what do you think?" my money's on a total freeze up.
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I agree that they hit profiles, flows, memory items, systems, and the sim pretty hard here, all in preparation for Memphis.

And you're right, some real life experience might be a little lacking. But to say I'll freeze if someone is having a heart attack while we're in a thunderstorm is a little much. I don't see how 500 more hours of traffic watch or crop dusting would have made me any better to judge what to do with a heart attack passenger. This situation is a common sense one. Try and get medical attention, divert as necessary to "nearest suitable airport" and get medics. Assuming the weather is holding up at the chosen airport, choose the nearest suitable airport w/ weather that allows a landing (weather above mins).
 
You know, it's one of those situations where you really have to say, "Kid, until you've been there and seen the ####, you don't have a clue about what you're gonna do."

It's not that the 500 additional hours of traffic watch helps you, it's the two engine failures, 50 near mid air's and constant dealings with ATC that helps you.

Aviation is not as academic as engineering. You can't study it in the classroom and expect to go out and apply it. You've gotta get down in the #### and get slapped in the face a few times by it.

Until you're been there and done it, expect to be a wanna-be and a know it all who has never been. It's just one of those things, and you won't understand it until you ARE sitting there with somebody dying in the back of your plane and you're faced with a decision to make. You can think about it all you want, but until your butt is in the seat thinking, "Ahh...if we mess this one up much we're gonna be in for a world of ####, and this was never a profile in the sim..." you're pretty much worthless.

So no an extra 500 hours of traffic watch won't happen, but having to had made decisions and actually extract yourself from a few less than great situations goes a lot further than you might think. Of course why would you think that, you've never been there thinking, "Huh....this is really bad....in fact this is impossible.....erm....guys have lawn darted with less than this going on before..."
 
I've had one engine failure (sorry it isn't up to your standards of two engine failures), and I've had plenty of near mid airs and constant dealings with ATC flying in the DC ADIZ. I certainly won't discredit that experience.

Until you're been there and done it, expect to be a wanna-be and a know it all who has never been. It's just one of those things, and you won't understand it until you ARE sitting there with somebody dying in the back of your plane and you're faced with a decision to make. You can think about it all you want, but until your butt is in the seat thinking, "Ahh...if we mess this one up much we're gonna be in for a world of ####, and this was never a profile in the sim..." you're pretty much worthless.
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Hey man, I DO understand it. I was flying with a guy in the back of a C172 who started to complain of chest pains. I thought heart attack, and IMMEDIATELY landed at the airport I had just left from, told the tower to call an ambulance if they could, and get us help. After I landed, the ambulance had just pulled up in the parking lot, and he was taken care of by the paramedics and taken to the hospital. Thankfully, he was ok, and is doing fine.

Did I freeze? Heck no! Why the he!! would I have frozen?!?! I'm sorry, it really was common sense.

Here was a guy who I thought was in serious trouble. He said chest pains, I thought 'heart attack!'. It was common sense that told me on that day to turn around, land immediately, and get this guy some help. I did exactly that, and he's fine.
 
Oh man, I'm sorry, I didn't realize that at 250 hours you were hot ####.

I don't mean to discount your experience, because it's good you've seen that stuff, but seriously man, I didn't realize you were such a great pilot.
 
jtrain609 said:
Oh man, I'm sorry, I didn't realize that at 250 hours you were hot ####.

I don't mean to discount your experience, because it's good you've seen that stuff, but seriously man, I didn't realize you were such a great pilot.
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Umm, actualy you are being the hot shot pilot telling other people they wouldn't know what to do if someone had a heart attack, because I can think "in theory" but in real life, I'd freeze. Right, thanks!

P.S. I have more than 250 hrs.


Your negative attitude rubbed off on me. For that, I must apologize.
 
kellwolf for the statement you made on the other page, Mega Ultra word(couldnt think of a better one) and Jtrain rock on man totally with ya on your point.:nana2:
 
Well its more of a social clash because you got the new class of pilots who are going the fast track route and the old school pilots who busted there balls in either military, instructing, and or flying charter. So with that social clash is bound to happen.
 
jtrain609 said:
You never really thought that my lack of very much public comment on this program has anything to do with not wanting to lose my job, have you?

I'd love to set you straight, but Don already has for the most part and if you'd like to know my thoughts on the program shoot me a PM.
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But now you could express your thoughts, as you are leaving, or have left said company. Remember, you too found a way as a low time pilot to get into a 135 operation. What makes your way any better then the SIC program? Would you recommend other low time pilots to build the hours the way you did?

Also, Don, thanks for the info.
 
jtrain609 said:
You know, it's one of those situations where you really have to say, "Kid, until you've been there and seen the ####, you don't have a clue about what you're gonna do."

It's not that the 500 additional hours of traffic watch helps you, it's the two engine failures, 50 near mid air's and constant dealings with ATC that helps you.

Aviation is not as academic as engineering. You can't study it in the classroom and expect to go out and apply it. You've gotta get down in the #### and get slapped in the face a few times by it.
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And how do you know this? Ever take an Engineering course, complete a program? Do you think you have the right to comment on something that you have NOT done? Think that electronics works like it says on paper? Try working in 13,800 volts and see if it responses EXACTLY like what the calculations say. Watch as it gets a fellow employee costing them there life (and it was only 480V).

Sorry man, you jump on others (like in this thread) for things they haven't done. You should have to stand up to the same. I like you JH, but you can't have it both ways.
 
ComplexHiAv8r said:
But now you could express your thoughts, as you are leaving, or have left said company. Remember, you too found a way as a low time pilot to get into a 135 operation. What makes your way any better then the SIC program? Would you recommend other low time pilots to build the hours the way you did?
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Because, if I understand JHs work at Amflight, he was a training captain. So he continued instructing . . . but for a 135 company.
 
You guys need to chill .... I'm a big time forum reader (not just this one) and I'm starting to see a pattern. I've been weighing my options carefully and still have not made a decision on how to proceed mainly because my situation (age) is a little different from most.
What I have picked up is there are several posters that really resent the "new" wave of training. I got my PPL in '72 and my IFR in '82 so I'm not a hot shot youngster that thinks he knows it all. To say the training you get at JU or CAE or ATP or wherever is not a good way to proceed strikes me as a hard ** for today's training environment. I understand fully that "real world experience" is 2nd to none however it is silly to think flying around in a 172 building hours (or light twin which has become almost unaffordable) is going to make you a better CRJ pilot. The only way to really become an "experienced" FO is to become a FO and be willing to continue to learn. A school that helps you learn the characteristics of the plane you will be flying seems to me to be a good way to better prepare yourself.
Getting into a pis**** contest only retracts from the value of this forum. Everyone here has good points but ........ it doesn't necessarily mean your way is the best way or the only way. Times have changed. I'm probably the oldest poster on here so I can honestly say that. I've learned alot on this forum and have already formed a few opinions of my own (based on what I have read). I know GA is PFJ and is not very well respected (although not a scab). Thats my opinion and I'm sticking to it but by no means do I expect everybody to agree.
 
I'm just glad there is someone on here older then ME!

I remember when a DC3 was then number one plane in the sky and Amelia Earhart was buzzing the sky!:panic:
 
"Nearest suitable airport." Hmmm, how do you determine that? It's not in a book or a chart, it's from EXPERIENCE. Do you take the CRJ into the nearest airport that only has a VOR approach to mins, do you go a little bit further to the place with an ILS but no tower making it a little tougher to make sure help is on the way or do you go to the bigger airport that's 30 minutes flight time away and hope the guy in the back makes it? JetU will NOT teach you things like this. The only thing that teaches that is experience, which is what the guys coming from JetU seriously lack.

Look, if someone wants to waste thousands of dollars on a program so you'll feel good going into training, there's nothing I can do to stop you. It's your money, waste it all you want. Personally, I'd rather have someone with more real world and less "Sega" experience in the seat next to me in a year or so.

I will say this. If I'm DHing in the back of one of our airplanes, and the CA shuffles off this mortal coil, I don't have a lot of confidence in JetU FOs up front. Now, if that happens and an engine flames out, I have no doubt they'd be able to handle the engine flame out.....
 
Look, if someone wants to waste thousands of dollars on a program so you'll feel good going into training, there's nothing I can do to stop you. It's your money, waste it all you want. Personally, I'd rather have someone with more real world and less "Sega" experience in the seat next to me in a year or so.
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If you could have:

1. Given me CRJ Systems training

2. Given me flows, profiles, memory items, and limitations for the CRJ

3. Given me FMS training

4. Given me FTD time

5. Given me Level C/D CRJ sim time

and

6. An interview with Pinnacle with my low time status (but more than 250 hrs)


... then I would have paid you $25k. :)
 
I will say this. If I'm DHing in the back of one of our airplanes, and the CA shuffles off this mortal coil, I don't have a lot of confidence in JetU FOs up front. Now, if that happens and an engine flames out, I have no doubt they'd be able to handle the engine flame out.....
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What's shuffle off a mortal coil?
 
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