Pinnacle???

[surreal1221]

But those guys are scabs, they crossed the picket line. Going to Jet U or Gulfstream isn't crossing a picket line.

I fail to see your comparison.

I hate quoting myself. . .but I must. . .

Is it wrong for me to think that people who do goto GIA, and other obvious PFJ establishments. . .that they should be blacklisted?

We blacklist scabs. . .why not start blacklisting people right from the start? Need some sort of established industry standard I suppose.

Note: I didn't say JetU.

Scabs came in and worked struck work, work that was struck by hard working individuals. It was a degradation of the profession because there were those who were willing to come in and work under horrible conditions, and further bring down the profession.

What is it that PFJ establishments, and PFT establishments for that matter, are doing to the industry?

Now we have guys who are willing to pay a company 25k+ to sit in the right seat, a seat that should be occupied by a fully paid individual who is fully qualified for that seat.

Bringing it down, and making it much harder for those of us who want to protect it. . . protect at least the status quo - otherwise we have no chance of bettering the profession for my generation, and the generation that will follow us young guys.

Still fail to see the comparision?

And please C_C, don't defend Jet U in this regard. . .as I'm not talking about Jet U.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

The sim instructors love you guys, great.

How do the line pilots feel about ya'll? How do the captains like ya'll?

Hows about you ask some of our Pinnacle FO's that frequent the forums.

I already have. I know one Captain, and he gave me the most realistic answer:

He said he's flown with crappy Gulfstream and Jet U pilots, and he's flown with great Jet U and Gulfstream pilots. He said he's flown with crappy 1000 hr CFIs, and he's flown with great 1000 hr CFIs. He said what it boils to in the cockpit is if they have a positive attitude and can learn quickly. [Btw, he was a check airman].

He said that EVERYONE (be it Jet U or a 1000 hr CFI), everyone gets behind the jet at first. He said he expects that. But he added that what he wants to see is the pilot have a positive attitude, no ego, and be willing to learn quickly and become better and better and get ahead of th eaircraft. So that was his take on it.

And he said if you have a positive attitude, are humble, and can learn quickly, that I'll be fine going through Jet U and onto Pinnacle.

 

[jtrain609]

I'm glad there's at least one check airman out there that supports this.

Let me make some phone calls to some folks that I used to work with, that work there now and see what they have to say...

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I hate quoting myself. . .but I must. . .



Scabs came in and worked struck work, work that was struck by hard working individuals. It was a degradation of the profession because there were those who were willing to come in and work under horrible conditions, and further bring down the profession.

What is it that PFJ establishments, and PFT establishments for that matter, doing to the industry?

Now we have guys who are willing to pay a company 25k+ to sit in the right seat, a seat that should be occupied by a fully paid individual who is fully qualified for that seat.

Bringing it down, and making it much harder for those of us who want to protect it. . . protect at least the status quo - otherwise we have no chance of bettering the profession for my generation, and the generation that will follow us young guys.

Still fail to see the comparision?

Actually, yes I do fail to see the comparison. Your analogy is weak. Crossing a picket line is COMPLETELY different.

"Degradation" of regional airlines? That's already happening with every regional trying to undercut another regional. Are you angry at Mesa?

A seat that "should be occupied" is an opinion. I don't agree with Gulfstream Academy, but if someone goes there, then so be it. The sad reality is that the world has changed after 9/11.

If Delta Air Lines announced tomorrow that they WILL hire ANYONE with just a Commercial, Instrument, Multi Engine and 500 hours total time, IF they pay $150,000 for their 'training' , I can bet you that they will get a huge stack of applicants. I wouldn't fish out $150k, but there are others who will. It's just how todays world is.

 

[surreal1221]

Yes, I'm angry at Mesa. . .JO specifically.

Nevertheless, it appears that it's more about "me" than about the profession as a whole.

Which is fine, to each his own. But like jtrain has said, and hell, even Farva to some extent . . . don't expect to get praise from everyone you come across.

If we, as a profession, are suppose to increase work rules, pay, and a number of QOL issues. . .it is going to be damn near impossible when establishments such as GIA exists, and a continued number of people say "Ah it's okay. . .since I'm doing it."

In regards to 9/11. . .yeah, let's keep using that as the reason everything sucks.

 

[kellwolf]

My question for those of you that are so set against the CRJ schools is .. where do you suggest one get the necessary training to pass the airline school ???

Easy answer here: the airline that hires you. I still have not hear of anyone failing ground school at Pinnacle. They either leave after the oral portion of the exam, during sims or bust their checkrides.....twice. Yeah, that's right. You get two chances on the checkride. It's not necessarily a "You failed. Back your bags" deal. They even give you a couple of chances on the oral as well. Airlines WANT you to pass. They've spent money on you at this point, and if you don't they have to start all over again, and that money is wasted. Schools with RJ programs generally don't remind people of that.

I still say that if you feel you're not up to par passing an airline ground school without paying money for a sneak peek, maybe you should ask yourself if you really belong at that level yet.

 

[kellwolf]

I already have. I know one Captain, and he gave me the most realistic answer:

I know one guy that thinks Communism is the greatest thing on the planet, but that doesn't make him right. I know too many check airmen that cringe at some of the guys coming through. I talked to one last week that's stepping down before he gets violated by a low time FO in training....again. [/quote]

He said that EVERYONE (be it Jet U or a 1000 hr CFI), everyone gets behind the jet at first. He said he expects that. But he added that what he wants to see is the pilot have a positive attitude, no ego, and be willing to learn quickly and become better and better and get ahead of th eaircraft. So that was his take on it.

That's fine, and I agree with that. But what happens when the crap hits the fan in the middle of a t-storm and you have to divert. I didn't even GET a divert on OE. My first one was on the line with a CA that just upgraded on reserve. THAT'S the reality these guys are gonna be thrown into. OE CAs can't POSSIBLY cover ever gap in the experience of a low time pilot that's been spoon-fed the sim syllabus. So, if they lose an engine, they've got the flow down pat. How are they gonna know what makes a good alternate and what makes a bad alternate? What if the CA makes a bad call, and they don't even KNOW it? It's still their job to fall back on experience (which they don't have) to double check the CA. Without that experience, they're just glorified gear pullers that can play Sega Airline Pilot in a Level D sim.

I gotta tell ya, I'm getting close to upgrade, and some of the FOs I've talked to in the crew room.....they scare me. Most of them are the low time guys that think it's "cool" to be flying a jet and counting down to their own quick upgrade.

I'm sure the Jet U guys do great in sim training. They should since they've already paid thousands and thousands of dollars to do it before. Does that make them better PILOTS? No, it just means they've had more practice at flows and profiles than everyone else. I can take my brother, toss him on MSFS and teach him Pinnacle flows and checklists. That doesn't make him a PILOT, though.

Heck, if it's just the flows and checklists you want. Save the cash. I'll charge you half what JetU is charging.....

 

[Fly4Pay]

Is it wrong for me to think that people who do goto GIA, and other obvious PFJ establishments. . .that they should be blacklisted?

We blacklist scabs. . .why not start blacklisting people right from the start? Need some sort of established industry standard I suppose.

Note: I didn't say JetU.

I'd have to disagree with you here. Basically you're pissed because someone else was willing to work for less than you are (to the point of paying to do it). Where do you draw the line? 737 pilots at American work for less than Southwest. Folks from AirTran work for less than that. So.... should I be blacklisted because I didn't demand top dollar? Where do you draw the line?

Crossing a picket line is one thing. This is something else entirely.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

If Delta Air Lines announced tomorrow that they WILL hire ANYONE with just a Commercial, Instrument, Multi Engine and 500 hours total time, IF they pay $150,000 for their 'training' , I can bet you that they will get a huge stack of applicants. I wouldn't fish out $150k, but there are others who will. It's just how todays world is.

No, but you'd pay $25-30k!

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

No, but you'd pay $25-30k!

Hey, check PMs.

 

[surreal1221]

Where do you draw the line?

I draw the line with my opinion that anyone who pays for a job, that someone else should be paid to perform. . .should be blacklisted.

Just as a scab comes in and works struck work, someone does a job for free, or pays an amount of money for that "opportunity," should also be blacklisted.

 

[Fly4Pay]

I draw the line with my opinion that anyone who pays for a job, that someone else should be paid to perform. . .should be blacklisted.

Just as a scab comes in and works struck work, someone does a job for free, or pays an amount of money for that "opportunity," should also be blacklisted.

OK, so if someone agrees to work for free for a year, then THAT'S okay?

 

[higney85]

Hey Farva,
You are just loving to knock the low timers- yet you are most likely one yourself being at UND and looking soo much into the various CRJ programs. After you are at PNCL other carriers don't care how you got there- you are flying for an ALPA carrier, are not blacklisted, and most of all flying a jet and getting the experience to move up. You made a mistake that it will hurt you to go to PCL- I beg to differ, FDX and netjets hire many of the 9E guys- so what does that say about the 2 most highly regarded companies in the 121 and frac world.

 

[kellwolf]

What ever floats your boat, i am paying less than you are and i have more traingin thatn you. clear and simple, you go the route you want but like i said if pinnacle is your only choice then good for you but dont expect a warm welcome from me or anyone else because you Jet U group at pinnacle right now get made fun even at ground at pinnacle and you may have the upper hand on Pinnacle flows and training but really thats all you are good for. So good Luck god speed and just be careful to where you say you got your training because the majortiy think Jet U ATP and GIA are all fads and ripoffs. And UND and ERAU may be ripoff compared to part 61 which is still debateable because the requirements for licensing under part 61 are slighty higer than part 141 but thats for a CFI discussion anyway. The school brings you alot of attirubutes that you do not get at Jet U or even sometimes at a part 61. By the wya my CFi is part 61 so the cost was more expensive under part 61 than 141 so letting ya know. Good Luck becasue you are gonna need it.

Okay, you're were doing good until you played the "I'm paying less than you, so there" card. Milage may vary on ANY flight school. I paid less than $20K for everything under Part 61 at my school, hardly even close to what you'd pay at a 141 school. Don't assume b/c you paid more, everyone does.

Also, much as I hate to say it, once you GET to the airlines, no one cares where you did your training. ATP, FBO, JetU, GIA, it doesn't matter except for cockpit conversation between you the person you're flying with. The best way to stop programs like this is to educate people that they're paying way too much money for something that isn't necessary.

 

[Malko]

What ever floats your boat, i am paying less than you are and i have more traingin thatn you. clear and simple, you go the route you want but like i said if pinnacle is your only choice then good for you but dont expect a warm welcome from me or anyone else because you Jet U group at pinnacle right now get made fun even at ground at pinnacle and you may have the upper hand on Pinnacle flows and training but really thats all you are good for. So good Luck god speed and just be careful to where you say you got your training because the majortiy think Jet U ATP and GIA are all fads and ripoffs. And UND and ERAU may be ripoff compared to part 61 which is still debateable because the requirements for licensing under part 61 are slighty higer than part 141 but thats for a CFI discussion anyway. The school brings you alot of attirubutes that you do not get at Jet U or even sometimes at a part 61. By the wya my CFi is part 61 so the cost was more expensive under part 61 than 141 so letting ya know. Good Luck becasue you are gonna need it.

I won't point every one of them out, but at least 20 errors that jump right out at a person. WOW! It's a good thing spelling/sentence structure isn't a requirement.

JetU, ATP, GIA fads and rip-offs. Please! The only one you can call a fad would be JetU. ATP has been in business a long time and while I am not sure about GIA, they have been around much longer than JetU. As far as a rip-off, that really up to the person who is paying for it.

In regards to licensing (61 v. 141), are you talking strictly about the number of hours required being higher? If not, I would have to believe that you are indeed the one who is wrong. I have trained in both 61 and 141 programs and the 141 requirements were far stricter (structure-wise) than the 61 requirements in regards to training.

And your CFI is costing you more under 61 than 141? That just doesn't sound right. Maybe we should wish you good luck, because from the sounds of it you are the one who needs it.

 

[Nick]

Bottom line is everyone who states that 'going to Jet u or gulfstream will get you backlisted' is just plain BS.

Very well -- the interview board might not care.

But if one of them had tried to get the jumpseat on my last trip with a captain who had not only the master scab list in his bag but also a complete list of the disputed Freedom "A" list at Mesa, a complete list of GoJets pilots, and Gulfstream and whatever else. I do not even know where he got them all but there were a few thousand names he wasn't about to let on his plane.

 

[Nick]

Regarding the argument that was made a few posts up about PFT not making a difference because it's all about who you know:

If a person wants to be a school bus driver and they are good friends with the person who manages the school buses in that district, should the applicant not care about their own driving record? After all -- they're buddybuddy with the one who's going to get them hired, why worry about speeding tickets, running red lights, and DUIs?

That's about all I need to know about their character.

Have some standards.

 

[surreal1221]

OK, so if someone agrees to work for free for a year, then THAT'S okay?

Nope. Not okay in my book.

It's a strange example of slave labor.

Fly a plane, that is suppose to be flown for pay, for free. . .wrong in my book.

Someone who is willing to do the job for free, while others are demanding respectable wages, is still bringing down the industry.

 

[Fly4Pay]

OK, so if someone agrees to work for free for a year, then THAT'S okay?

Nope. Not okay in my book.

It's a strange example of slave labor.

Fly a plane, that is suppose to be flown for pay, for free. . .wrong in my book.

Someone who is willing to do the job for free, while others are demanding respectable wages, is still bringing down the industry.

But wait... you said:

I draw the line with my opinion that anyone who pays for a job, that someone else should be paid to perform. . .should be blacklisted.

Now you're saying that working for free (which isn't paying for a job) isn't good either. What about if they work for $5 per hour? Is that okay?

Do you see my point yet? You have drawn an arbitrary (and apparently flexible) line in the sand that exists only because you feel you are getting the short end of the stick. There's no logic or business sense to it, only emotion...

 

[jtrain609]

But wait... you said:



Now you're saying that working for free (which isn't paying for a job) isn't good either. What about if they work for $5 per hour? Is that okay?

Do you see my point yet? You have drawn an arbitrary (and apparently flexible) line in the sand that exists only because you feel you are getting the short end of the stick. There's no logic or business sense to it, only emotion...

So what if me and my Army showed up to do your job for 50% an hour less than you do right now? You were let go from your company because a more economical solution was provided to your companies work force needs and you lost your job.

Because you lost your job you lost your house.

Try to remove emotion from that.

If you think you can, go ask MQAAOrd how she removed any emotion from her situation when she got furloughed from American and her husband got a 50% pay cut from Delta, and they lost their house.

It's just one of those things man, you screw with a persons ability to pay their bills and take care of their family and they want to break your knee's. It's just human nature I figure.