Pilots who are afraid of the airplane

I'm afraid of the front of an airplane. Does that mean I should be wearing underwear without a fly?

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Fly_Unity said:
They had Accelerated stalls in the last revision in the PTS for both private and commercial. However I got a call from the FAA (our POI) who said the accelerated stalls in the Private PTS was made in error and they made a revision to take it out. And they did (Although ASA still printed them in their PTS's for a while).

Last week I got another call from him saying he thinks the accelerated stalls in the commercial PTS are also in error and they they are possibly going to be removed as well. Not sure if that has actually been confirmed though.
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That is a shame! Not only are they fun, but it is one of those easy maneuvers that lets you comfortably explore the envelope and gives you great stall/spin awareness in a more practical flight circumstance (base to final). I believe Hacker15e touched on maneuvers that do this, care to explain some of those maneuvers, if allowed?

I believe the Commercial PTS specified them at 45 degrees of bank and the Private PTS specified at 20 degrees of bank. I am going to talk to a DE about it tomorrow and get the details.
 
Qutch said:
Good for you. That's how I started training as a 15.5 y/o. I started out thinking that spins were the main reason to take up flying. X-Country was boring by comparison. Unusual attitude recovery and aerobatics was standard at Air Force pilot training also. Part of the fun. But when I started re-familiarizing myself with civilian flight schools again, I found that the cookie-cutter flight schools now avoid them like the plague. The CFI's look at me like they are a deer caught in the headlights when I raise the issue. :eek: I think that TwoTwoLeft is far more familiar with the CFI culture than I am. I just don't understand it. Why would anyone want to fly a plane, or sail a sailboat, unless they were thoroughly familiar with how to right the ship if (when) it capsizes?

Hobie Cat
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I used to own a Hobie Cat, and guests would sometimes chicken out of going with me when I started briefing them on emergency procedures, how to right the boat if we capsized. "We might capsize?!":eek2:

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I will be honest, my first spin was in a Skybolt with a friend. I was always nervous about them, mostly for misunderstanding. I went up with him anyway and after the initial entry it was nothing but smiles and a do it again from me. Since then its all I have wanted to do (Pitts S1-S fund specifically designed for that). At the same time, I am friends with a former WAC competitor and current airshow pilot who bought an Eagle, and went to do spin training in the aircraft to not kill himself in it.

I am lucky though, I feel like I have some of the best instructors and mentors in the world. They instilled confidence in me by stretching my comfort zone and challenging me. They also taught me good judgement and how to make those good decisions. When I've done single pilot IFR operations in comfortable actual, I never had doubts of my skill level in those situations. And all of this was not classroom "ADM" stuff. I guess old school grassroots isn't cool anymore.
 
n57flyguy said:
That is a shame! Not only are they fun, but it is one of those easy maneuvers that lets you comfortably explore the envelope and gives you great stall/spin awareness in a more practical flight circumstance (base to final). I believe Hacker15e touched on maneuvers that do this, care to explain some of those maneuvers, if allowed?
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They are aircraft specific to the jets I've flown, so I doubt their specific applicability to GA aircraft as published. Regardless, here are a couple of examples:

Nose-High/Low-Speed Recovery.

Objective. The objective of this exercise is to demonstrate the departure resistance of the F-15E.
Execution.
Entry Parameters. Entry parameters are 15,000 feet MSL at 350 KCAS in Mil power and check internal fuel balanced.
Tactical Application. There is no tactical application; this is a confidence maneuver only.
Maneuver Accomplishment. Pull up to 70 to 80 degrees nose-high and smoothly neutralize the controls. Keep controls neutral as the aircraft slows to
almost 0 knots and self-recovers to a nose-low attitude. As the nose falls down through the vertical, you may experience a slight negative-G condition. The
aircraft may "tuck under" into an inverted position. With slight backstick pressure, the nose will track back to pure vertical. Shortly thereafter, the aircraft accelerates through 200 KCAS at which time the pilot should initiate a recovery to level flight. Note the aircraft feel throughout the maneuver and altitude lost (3,000 to 5,000 feet).
Common Errors. Flight controls must be held neutral until the aircraft attains a nose-down attitude. At this point, normal controls can be used to counter negative-G excursions.
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Reversal Exercise and High-AOA Maneuvers.

Objective. The objective is as follows:
• Demonstrate AHC during rolling reversals.
• Practice high-AOA maneuvers using lateral stick and rudder inputs to maximize roll performance.
• Understand how external stores and the engine's gyroscopic effects influence roll performance.
Execution.
Entry Parameters. Entry parameters are 15,000 feet MSL at 350 KCAS.
Tactical Application. The aircrew must be able to accomplish maximum performance rolls at high AOA in A/A situations. This high-AOA condition most commonly occurs after a reversal maneuver against an overshooting bandit.
Maneuver Accomplishment. Start a 4- to 5-G level, Mil power turn. Rapidly unload to less than 1 G, roll 180 degrees using lateral stick to orient the lift
vector in the opposite direction, and then rapidly apply full aft stick. The nose position will rapidly change by 50 to 60 degrees, airspeed will disappear rapidly,
and AOA will increase to 35 to 40 CPU. Ease off the backstick pressure to break the AOA and start a nose-high roll back to wings-level using a combination of
lateral stick and rudder to execute this roll. Establish a nose-high attitude and enough backstick to hold 30 to 35 CPU. Note the aircraft feel and fly heads-out
attempting to maintain 30 to 35 CPU. Feed in right rudder and roll the aircraft into 90 degrees of bank, noting aircraft feel and the rate of the rudder induced reversal. Now roll back 180 degrees to the left using rudder and holding aft stick (but not using lateral stick) to maintain 30 to 35 CPU. Roll out slightly after the turn has been reversed, and unload slightly to establish 200 to 250 KCAS. Increase backstick again to establish 30 to 35 CPU; then rudder roll back to the right, while selecting full AB, and then back to the left again using full AB. Note the difference in aircraft feel and rate of reversal between right and left in Mil versus AB while making 180-degree rolling reversals at 30 to 35 CPU in the 200 to 250 KCAS regime.
Common Errors. There is a tendency to use excessive AOA (greater than 35 CPU) during the maneuver. Even the rudders become less effective at AOAs
approaching 40 CPU. This error is identified when the F-15E hangs up and roll rate slows or stops. Ensure airspeed does not increase when selecting AB while setting up for the second turn. Avoid this by selecting AB simultaneously with the application of G-loading to the aircraft.
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Hacker15e said:
They are aircraft specific to the jets I've flown, so I doubt their specific applicability to GA aircraft as published. Regardless, here are a couple of examples:
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That's some cool stuff, maybe I'll get to try it one day. Aircraft specific, what is CPU?
 
n57flyguy said:
That's some cool stuff, maybe I'll get to try it one day. Aircraft specific, what is CPU?
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It is a measure of angle of attack. It means "CockPit Units of AOA". For whatever reason the engineers decided not to use actual degrees to measure it.
 
Qutch said:
I think that TwoTwoLeft is far more familiar with the CFI culture than I am. I just don't understand it. Why would anyone want to fly a plane, or sail a sailboat, unless they were thoroughly familiar with how to right the ship if (when) it capsizes?
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Simple. Because a lot of pilots don't look at flying like sailing a boat.

Boats are used largely for recreation, with transportation as a side benefit. Airplanes are the other way around, used primarily for transportation with recreation as a side benefit.

Unlike boats, where their owners derive pleasure from the act itself of sailing, many pilots derive pleasure from things *other than* the act of flying. Flying is just a byproduct of the real reasons they are pilots. They like the speed, convenience, status, etc.

Think of something completely unrelated to all this. Maybe public speaking. Or heights. Or spiders. People have fears of those things. Few of them are rational fears. Most of them can be overcome. The question is, why would a person want to? If there isn't a good reason to overcome a fear, most people are content to move through life by avoiding the problem rather than confronting it.

You and I are no different, it's just our fears lie outside of flying.
 
Obviously there isn't a need to take a Cherokee out and do either of these types of maneuvers, but they're an example of the type of things that could be developed for a specific airplane's flight and handling characteristics (beyond straight and level flight and 30-degree bank turns).

Quite honestly, if the Commerical syllabus would simply include basic unusual attitudes (upset training), spins, and basic aerobatics (the 'baby acro' like the loop and the aileron roll), it would go a long way toward increasing pilot confidence and skill.
 
Hacker15e said:
Obviously there isn't a need to take a Cherokee out and do either of these types of maneuvers, but they're an example of the type of things that could be developed for a specific airplane's flight and handling characteristics (beyond straight and level flight and 30-degree bank turns).

Quite honestly, if the Commerical syllabus would simply include basic unusual attitudes (upset training), spins, and basic aerobatics (the 'baby acro' like the loop and the aileron roll), it would go a long way toward increasing pilot confidence and skill.
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And a tail wheel endorsement. The PTS includes unusual attitudes, but they are not really done on the edge of a stall or a rapidly increasing airspeed.
 
n57flyguy said:
The PTS includes unusual attitudes, but they are not really done on the edge of a stall or a rapidly increasing airspeed.
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When I was at FlightSafety getting a B300 type, I laughed out loud when the instructor introduced 'unusual attitudes' by saying they'd be performed at 45 degrees of bank and 30 degrees of pitch. She was not amused when I snorted back, "what's so unusual about that?"
 
n57flyguy said:
And a tail wheel endorsement. The PTS includes unusual attitudes, but they are not really done on the edge of a stall or a rapidly increasing airspeed.
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Another thing CFIs don't seem to understand is that you are allowed to exceed 30 pitch and 60 bank (or within the airplane's operating limitations) when teaching unusual attitude recovery. It's right in 91.307(c)(2).

You can accomplish a lot of unusual attitude conditions in a spin approved, utility category airplane without needing a chute.

Hacker15e said:
When I was at FlightSafety getting a B300 type, I laughed out loud when the instructor introduced 'unusual attitudes' by saying they'd be performed at 45 degrees of bank and 30 degrees of pitch. She was not amused when I snorted back, "what's so unusual about that?"
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Yeah, it's kind of a joke. Come on! You're in a SIM for f's sake! USE IT!
 
We did considerably more ballsy unusual attitudes at air first in the flesh and blood MU-2 than we did in the pretend bitchjet at SimCom, erp, I mean Simuflite. Really puzzling...

BTW, this a great thread. Good information, sharing of ideas/experiences, and not a swinging purse in sight!

Edit: Forgot where the sim was for a second. Must have been memorable.
 
jrh said:
.........Unlike boats, where their owners derive pleasure from the act itself of sailing, many pilots derive pleasure from things *other than* the act of flying. Flying is just a byproduct of the real reasons they are pilots. They like the speed, convenience, status, etc.

.........The question is, why would a person want to? If there isn't a good reason to overcome a fear, most people are content to move through life by avoiding the problem rather than confronting it....
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That about sums up the problem perhaps. Why would we turn flight instruction over to CFIs who's real underlying '.....reason they are pilots is they like the speed, convenience, status, etc.' ? Convenience and Status? Is that a good psyche profile for a pilot-for-hire or CFI?

If they don't want to sign up for the stall/spin-until-you-puke joy course, maybe they can be "pilots" of some sort, but perhaps they should leave the flight instruction role to someone else. Is that a radical proposal......post Colgan?
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IMHO, there are a lot of factors in the seeming "slackness" of a lot of pilots these days. Number one is probably that you're a lot more likely to get away with it and not die horribly, thanks to all of the safety built in to modern systems. And I do appreciate the safety systems, even if I may not always sound like it. But I do also think that there is a point of diminishing returns where the safety systems wind up innoculating the Pilot (or Systems Operator, if you prefer) against learning the techne of their chosen profession. And I think we've probably reached or conceivably exceeded it.
 
this is a fantastic thread!! Being from a giant 141 aviation university and now starting out as a brand new cfi at a tiny school I can relate to what has been said about that type of enviroment for sure! First chance i got after getting into aviation I went up in an aerobatics aircraft (a super decathlon) and got to throw it around a little with an instructor. So far Ive done aerobatics three times. ( super d, twice in a pitts) Everyone remembers the famous phase, "an aircraft can stall it any attitude". First time in a pitts I pulled to hard in the down side of a loop and this crazy thing happened...I instantly hit the stall buffet. low and behold I (or more like the pitts instructor flying with me) pushed the nose skyward to recover...who ever heard of pitching up for stall recovery... :) My pt is that really ingrained in my the true meaning of that phrase. I talk about that with every student i encounter. I think aerobatics should be do at the private level in some fashion. As was stated above, "baby aerobatics" at least. All this being said, I am by no meaning an "aerobatics pilot" but if/when money allows (yeah right :) ) I plan to without a doubt get well versed in aerobatics.
 
I just noticed a slight flaw in my above post. by "downside of a loop" I meant the portion in which the plane is inverted and heading back toward to ground. ( past 180 degrees?) and by "pushing the nose skyward" forward stick was still used to recover but being inverted the nose when up not down. :) again, not an aerobatics pilot!
 
A little while ago, I had a CFI applicant who told me before the first lesson on stalls that he was absolutely afraid of them and, depending on how that lesson went, was considering dropping the course (he was taking as an elective). I asked him why he was afraid, he said that in PPL training his instructor would immediately panic and take over controls at the first sign of a wing drop.

On our lesson, I taught him first how a wing drop occurs by having him perform the stall with intentionally incorrect rudder inputs, then when it came time to recover, he took it from there. The next lesson was his spin flight, he came down with an ear to ear grin and actually ended up finishing the course ahead of the rest of his class, and actually the only one in his class to finish during the allotted time and get hired by the school as a CFI at the end.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
cezzna618 said:
I just noticed a slight flaw in my above post. by "downside of a loop" I meant the portion in which the plane is inverted and heading back toward to ground. ( past 180 degrees?) and by "pushing the nose skyward" forward stick was still used to recover but being inverted the nose when up not down. :) again, not an aerobatics pilot!
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Oh no! I just sent someone up after printing out your instructions for him. I told him....."don't worry, I got it off the internet."

We are so screwed.
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