Pilots are not learned professionals.

[knot4u]

In which case it seemed hypocritical to me, since at that level of pay, you would be a professional in your field

Being professional has nothing to do with the amount of compensation, it's more of a mindset. I've been witness to many highly paid people acting unprofessional, I've also been witness to people not making a lot of money conduct themselves with a very professional manner.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Being professional has nothing to do with the amount of compensation, it's more of a mindset. I've been witness to many highly paid people acting unprofessional, I've also been witness to people not making a lot of money conduct themselves with a very professional manner.

I'm a professional aviator. I'm also a laborer.

That has little to nothing to do with the discussion at hand, which is a legal quibble.

 

[dasleben]

No, pilots are not.



We very clearly don't comply with the 3rd bullet point, and we barely comply with with the 2nd bullet point.

You really gonna let someone who isn't a pilot tell you what a pilot is or isn't?

Alright, so scratch "learned," if we're speaking in a legal sense. We're still skilled professionals, and must value ourselves as such at the negotiating table.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

You really gonna let someone who isn't a pilot tell you what a pilot is or isn't?

Alright, so scratch "learned," if we're speaking in a legal sense. We're still skilled professionals, and must value ourselves as such at the negotiating table.

For sure. And we need to act like it.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

For sure. And we need to act like it.

Agreed. But that's not really what we do. How many neurosurgeons or CEOs do you think are walking around their place of work with iPod earbuds in their ears? Pilots like to insist that they be treated like "learned professionals," but a dwindling number of them actually behave like it.

 

[n57flyguy]

You really gonna let someone who isn't a pilot tell you what a pilot is or isn't?

Alright, so scratch "learned," if we're speaking in a legal sense. We're still skilled professionals, and must value ourselves as such at the negotiating table.

Learned is essentially defined with in three fields: theology, medical, and law requiring advanced learning and high principals. So, yes in a legal sense by court definition, obviously the answer is pilots are not learned professions. I am not even sure why this was defined in this manner, unless for specifics of differentiation of professions. I would venture anything outside of those fields is not a learned profession, it seems to be a finite definition, but I am not certain. Maybe a "bogus" point for leverage.

 

[n57flyguy]

Agreed. But that's not really what we do. How many neurosurgeons or CEOs do you think are walking around their place of work with iPod earbuds in their ears? Pilots like to insist that they be treated like "learned professionals," but a dwindling number of them actually behave like it.

May I ask what the proposed resolve is for issues like unto that which is bold?

 

[mshunter]

Yes. Skilled professional.

I've worked actual blue collar jobs, as well. Grinding steel beams to prep for the welders, basic drywall work, loading moving trucks, etc. I made $10/hr or thereabouts for that kind of work, and that was pretty decent. My job now, which involves showing up, doing lots of paperwork, and landing sometimes, does not at all match my definition of "blue collar." I, and the rest of my coworkers, have significant experience, and get paid a professional-level wage for it. The guys/gals loading the freight onto the jet behind us are labor as well (and we'd stand behind them as unionists if they ever struck), but there's a significant experience gap between an entry-level loader job and the people flying the jet.

Make no mistake, I know that I'm not in charge of running the operation, nor do I want to be. However, I get concerned when guys start tossing "blue collar" around so casually. Remember, we're negotiating our livelihoods every few years as experienced professionals in our field. That's how we need to see ourselves when the next CBA comes up for negotiation.

FYI, "white collar" and "blue collar" really don't mean much as long as you value yourself as a learned professional (which we are, regardless of what this judge says).

I was a professional auto mechanic. I am now a professional pilot. I was never a "white collar" mechanic, nor am I now a "white collar" pilot. But as you clearly stated at the end of your post, the "collar" one wears should have no bearing on ones self worth. What we all need to recognize is we have a valuable skill set that we should be charging a premium for. Because in the end, that's all that really matters. Well that, and how many days off a month do I get?

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Agreed. But that's not really what we do. How many neurosurgeons or CEOs do you think are walking around their place of work with iPod earbuds in their ears? Pilots like to insist that they be treated like "learned professionals," but a dwindling number of them actually behave like it.

Speak for yourself. (Actually probably not you yourself, but you get the idea.)

May I ask what the proposed resolve is for issues like unto that which is bold?

Captains who give a damn (like @Bumblebee probably did) making sure their crews comply with professional appearance. Actually people who generally give a damn.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

May I ask what the proposed resolve is for issues like unto that which is bold?

I'm not sure that there is one.

 

[n57flyguy]

Captains who give a damn (like @Bumblebee probably did) making sure their crews comply with professional appearance. Actually people who generally give a damn.

The point is made, however, cares are (should be) given at the expectation of the company.

I'm not sure that there is one.

So we have an ouroboros of wallow and complaining about others acting with a lack of professionalism with no counter action to better the profession and gain overall compliance. Is the latter not which is sought after?

 

[n57flyguy]

Yes. Skilled professional.

FYI, "white collar" and "blue collar" really don't mean much as long as you value yourself as a learned professional (which we are, regardless of what this judge says).

The judges bearing on this matter are not to be disregarded. We are not, learned professionals. Emphasis on learned, and not professional or even resembling professionalism. That is the basis for most of the confusion here.

Lets begin:

For starters, referencing the article itself makes sense. The article gives clear provision for where the judge based the ruling.

U.S. District Court Judge Sharon Gleason sided with the pilots on that question. She based her Aug. 26 ruling in part on a 2010 decision by the Third Circuit Court of Appeals issued in the case of two helicopter pilots employed by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.

The applicable exemption from the FLSA urged here encompasses employees who are determined to be members of the "learned" professions, as defined by 29 C.F.R. §§ 541.3 and 541.301. An employee's status as a "learned professional" is determined by his or her duties and salary. 29 C.F.R. § 541.3. In order to qualify as a "learned professional" an employee's primary duties must consist of:

[w]ork requiring knowledge of an advance [sic] type in a field of science or learning customarily acquired by a prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction and study, as distinguished from a general academic education and from an apprenticeship, and from training in the performance of routine mental, manual, or physical processes.

http://www.leagle.com/decision/2010858593bf3d265_1857

Now there is a law to base the previous ruling on, giving the case apparent precedence and applicability.

That law is 29 CFR 541.301

§ 541.301
Learned professionals.
(a) To qualify for the learned professional exemption, an employee's primary duty must be the performance of work requiring advanced knowledge in a field of science or learning customarily acquired by a prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction. This primary duty test includes three elements:
(1) The employee must perform work requiring advanced knowledge;
(2) The advanced knowledge must be in a field of science or learning; and
(3) The advanced knowledge must be customarily acquired by a prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction.
(b) The phrase “work requiring advanced knowledge” means work which is predominantly intellectual in character, and which includes work requiring the consistent exercise of discretion and judgment, as distinguished from performance of routine mental, manual, mechanical or physical work. An employee who performs work requiring advanced knowledge generally uses the advanced knowledge to analyze, interpret or make deductions from varying facts or circumstances. Advanced knowledge cannot be attained at the high school level.
(c) The phrase “field of science or learning” includes the traditional professions of law, medicine, theology, accounting, actuarial computation, engineering, architecture, teaching, various types of physical, chemical and biological sciences, pharmacy and other similar occupations that have a recognized professional status as distinguished from the mechanical arts or skilled trades where in some instances the knowledge is of a fairly advanced type, but is not in a field of science or learning.

(Omit full detail of (d) but defines “customarily acquired by a prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction”)

(e) goes on to explain nine fields of learned professions while (f) goes into detail about accreditation and certifications as well as exemptions (new fields of study, etc.)

http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/29/541.301

____________________________________________

This case, the term professional is being used different than a rather "normal" use of the word professional, or resembling professionalism (human behavior). This case deals with compensation, so it needs to be defined in that manner (meaning not a case of unprofessional behavior or unbecoming of a professional). And that judgement was made in accordance with legal precedence (Michael G. PIGNATARO; Thompson R. Chase v. PORT AUTHORITY OF NEW YORK AND NEW JERSEY) and law (29 CFR 541.301). This is not simply legal quibble or splitting hairs, yet a dissonance due to lack of misunderstanding of the case and what it really means, even though the details of relevance were given for open view of what is, and what is not. The above referenced case and law is what the judge was reading when the initial ruling was decided upon, an obvious axiom.

This case has very little to do with the term professional (again, in the usage of behavior), yet everything to do with what is considered "learned" and how the pilots should be compensated in that regard, thus a matter for the courts to decided.

 

[dasleben]

The judges bearing on this matter are not to be disregarded. We are not, learned professionals. Emphasis on learned, and not professional or even resembling professionalism. That is the basis for most of the confusion here.

Lets begin:

For starters, referencing the article itself makes sense. The article gives clear provision for where the judge based the ruling.





http://www.leagle.com/decision/2010858593bf3d265_1857

Now there is a law to base the previous ruling on, giving the case apparent precedence and applicability.

That law is 29 CFR 541.301

§ 541.301
Learned professionals.
(a) To qualify for the learned professional exemption, an employee's primary duty must be the performance of work requiring advanced knowledge in a field of science or learning customarily acquired by a prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction. This primary duty test includes three elements:
(1) The employee must perform work requiring advanced knowledge;
(2) The advanced knowledge must be in a field of science or learning; and
(3) The advanced knowledge must be customarily acquired by a prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction.
(b) The phrase “work requiring advanced knowledge” means work which is predominantly intellectual in character, and which includes work requiring the consistent exercise of discretion and judgment, as distinguished from performance of routine mental, manual, mechanical or physical work. An employee who performs work requiring advanced knowledge generally uses the advanced knowledge to analyze, interpret or make deductions from varying facts or circumstances. Advanced knowledge cannot be attained at the high school level.
(c) The phrase “field of science or learning” includes the traditional professions of law, medicine, theology, accounting, actuarial computation, engineering, architecture, teaching, various types of physical, chemical and biological sciences, pharmacy and other similar occupations that have a recognized professional status as distinguished from the mechanical arts or skilled trades where in some instances the knowledge is of a fairly advanced type, but is not in a field of science or learning.

(Omit full detail of (d) but defines “customarily acquired by a prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction”)

(e) goes on to explain nine fields of learned professions while (f) goes into detail about accreditation and certifications as well as exemptions (new fields of study, etc.)

http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/29/541.301

____________________________________________

This case, the term professional is being used different than a rather "normal" use of the word professional, or resembling professionalism (human behavior). This case deals with compensation, so it needs to be defined in that manner (meaning not a case of unprofessional behavior or unbecoming of a professional). And that judgement was made in accordance with legal precedence (Michael G. PIGNATARO; Thompson R. Chase v. PORT AUTHORITY OF NEW YORK AND NEW JERSEY) and law (29 CFR 541.301). This is not simply legal quibble or splitting hairs, yet a dissonance due to lack of misunderstanding of the case and what it really means, even though the details of relevance were given for open view of what is, and what is not. The above referenced case and law is what the judge was reading when the initial ruling was decided upon, an obvious axiom.

This case has very little to do with the term professional (again, in the usage of behavior), yet everything to do with what is considered "learned" and how the pilots should be compensated in that regard, thus a matter for the courts to decided.

Thank you, but I hope you didn't put much time into this. http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/pilots-are-not-learned-professionals.186705/page-2#post-2183716

Strike "learned" from the record, Counselor! Anyway, my concern is not over the legal definition of "learned" (my attention span doesn't go that far), but rather that we as pilots see ourselves as valuable, experienced professionals when contract time comes up. Learned or not, I hope people aren't simply parroting "pilots are blue collar." I might be labor, but I sure as hell want white collar pay.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Learned or not, I hope people aren't simply parroting "pilots are blue collar." I might be labor, but I sure as hell want white collar pay.

Frankly, part of the reason that pilots have had our profession beaten down so much is because pilots don't recognize that they are blue collar workers. The sooner that pilots realize that they aren't white collar management types, and figure out that we have to fight for what we get no differently than a plumber or electrician, the better. But I don't see that happening, so I'm generally pessimistic about us ever getting back to where we once were.

 

[Seggy]

How do leather jackets fit into this discussion?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

How do leather jackets fit into this discussion?

I'm trying to hold back, Squatch.

 

[scooter2525]

How do leather jackets fit into this discussion?

Elitist.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Skilled labor. Why is this confusing or embarrassing?

We have a serious case of "Every Child An Astronaut" in the US. I lived in Germany for a while when I was a kid. Kids went to different schools based on their aptitudes and ambitions. There was no particular shame in going to Hauptschule vs. Gymnasium or Realschule. Like, would the parents be happier if the kid went to Gymnasium? Maybe. Some of them, anyway. But the world needs ditch-diggers, people who build ditch-digging equipment, people who design ditch-digging equipment, and people who are elected by the rest of us to decide where the ditches are built and how to stea...I mean find more money to pay for the ditches. Seems like everyone in the US is ready to drown themselves if their kid doesn't become the screwing imperator of the Universe. And that's sick. Not, like, in the good way, bro.

PS. Although I suppose, hilariously, that Astronauts are "skilled labor", too. "Every child a Senator", maybe? God freaking forbid.

 

[n57flyguy]

Thank you, but I hope you didn't put much time into this. http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/pilots-are-not-learned-professionals.186705/page-2#post-2183716

Strike "learned" from the record, Counselor! Anyway, my concern is not over the legal definition of "learned" (my attention span doesn't go that far), but rather that we as pilots see ourselves as valuable, experienced professionals when contract time comes up. Learned or not, I hope people aren't simply parroting "pilots are blue collar." I might be labor, but I sure as hell want white collar pay.

Not too much, but it was interesting enough to investigate. It is a matter of thought to prove an earlier point I made (and disproved one, as well). I see your point, and the branch topic, due for another thread. I would actually be curious to see that; plans to accomplish better salary for skills, how a union perceives that, how a pilot group of a company can unify, etc. Providing resolve to issues that are often brought up here on JC would be more beneficial than just complaining about it, feeling entitled to it, or feeling like something is deserved. And not saying you or anyone else specifically, but I have noticed a trend about those particular topics, even mentioned in this thread.

 

[rframe]

I think people are caught up on the wording here as some sort of a value assessment. That's not what it means. Learned professional is not a rating of your value, it's more a typology. Like you cannot use the professional term "Engineer", "Architect", "MD", unless you are one. Being labelled a "Professional" in the traditional sense has nothing to do with exhibiting "professionalism" in your career of choice.