Pilots are not learned professionals.

So let me get this straight... They went on the record in court, insisting they WEREN'T learned professionals? So they could make more money in overtime?

Um... Race to the bottom!
 
inigo88 said:
So let me get this straight... They went on the record in court, insisting they WEREN'T learned professionals? So they could make more money in overtime?

Um... Race to the bottom!
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Make no mistake - you're a blue collar worker. I suspect that some of the long term losses we've had in this industry are because we've forgotten that. You wouldn't see a welder or a heavy equipment operator working for $20,000/year unless it was part time.
 
ppragman said:
Make no mistake - you're a blue collar worker. I suspect that some of the long term losses we've had in this industry are because we've forgotten that. You wouldn't see a welder or a heavy equipment operator working for $20,000/year unless it was part time.
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We are labor.

The sooner more pilots figure that out, the sooner we'll be better off.
 
The State do Alaska has always viewed pilots as a "unprofessional" labor group and therefore not eligible for a true salary position. For the most part flying jobs up here pay a livable to very comfortable wage so most are content, but there have been several disputes between pilots an employers over overtime wage and duty days, and in every case the company has lost. So it is not uncommon to be payed a day rate but have a paycheck that reflects a 8hr normal day with remaining 6hrs shown as overtime. What makes this different is that is a Federal ruling an could have big effects if lower 48 pilots groups decide to press the issue. Looking at entry level ups/fedex and regional pay the reverse calculation of salary or day pay brings the 8hr normal pay rate below minimum wage standards which is a battle already fought and lost by employers up here. Also in these disputes the state has always maintained that duty time is what counts not pay by flight hour. So how can it be a race to the bottom when the net result will be higher base pay levels for a full duty day. This has been a battle that any pilot union group could have picked up an easily won in the lower 48... That's the race to the bottom.
 
Before everyone dog piles, I misread the article. It talks about the overtime exemption for employees making greater than $100,000/yr, and I misunderstood it to mean North Slope SAR pilots in Barrow made that much. In which case it seemed hypocritical to me, since at that level of pay, you would be a professional in your field.

Pilots tend to be caught between two talking points: On the one hand, we recognize we should be compensated as professionals for our time. On the other hand, we're realists that understand the majority make 20-40k/yr and deserve the union and labor law protections other blue collar workers get.

Reading comprehension fail on my part or badly written article, I misunderstood it to mean a few people who DID have the professional-level salaries the rest of us aspired to make one day were not satisfied with it and were misrepresenting it in court to claim more.

Not only was that incorrect, but coming from a SAR background myself, as far as I'm concerned those guys are rock stars and deserve every penny.
 
Capt. Chaos said:
The State do Alaska has always viewed pilots as a "unprofessional" labor group and therefore not eligible for a true salary position. For the most part flying jobs up here pay a livable to very comfortable wage so most are content, but there have been several disputes between pilots an employers over overtime wage and duty days, and in every case the company has lost. So it is not uncommon to be payed a day rate but have a paycheck that reflects a 8hr normal day with remaining 6hrs shown as overtime. What makes this different is that is a Federal ruling an could have big effects if lower 48 pilots groups decide to press the issue. Looking at entry level ups/fedex and regional pay the reverse calculation of salary or day pay brings the 8hr normal pay rate below minimum wage standards which is a battle already fought and lost by employers up here. Also in these disputes the state has always maintained that duty time is what counts not pay by flight hour. So how can it be a race to the bottom when the net result will be higher base pay levels for a full duty day. This has been a battle that any pilot union group could have picked up an easily won in the lower 48... That's the race to the bottom.
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We posted at the same time, but I agree. Now that I understand the issue (embarrassed for misunderstanding it in the first place), it's a positive ruling that will hopefully help pilots in the lower-48 out as well.
 
@Autothrust Blue has it most accurately. We are skilled professionals, somewhat in our own niche. However, we are (for the most part) labor. Some pilots blend white collar or blue collar work, depending on what they do for their operation. The pilot humping boxes in Alaska doesn't quite compare to the pilot also managing a Part 91 jet.
 
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inigo88 said:
Before everyone dog piles, I misread the article. It talks about the overtime exemption for employees making greater than $100,000/yr, and I misunderstood it to mean North Slope SAR pilots in Barrow made that much. In which case it seemed hypocritical to me, since at that level of pay, you would be a professional in your field.

Pilots tend to be caught between two talking points: On the one hand, we recognize we should be compensated as professionals for our time. On the other hand, we're realists that understand the majority make 20-40k/yr and deserve the union and labor law protections other blue collar workers get.

Reading comprehension fail on my part or badly written article, I misunderstood it to mean a few people who DID have the professional-level salaries the rest of us aspired to make one day were not satisfied with it and were misrepresenting it in court to claim more.

Not only was that incorrect, but coming from a SAR background myself, as far as I'm concerned those guys are rock stars and deserve every penny.
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I know it was a minor error, but I have mad respect for anyone who can screw something up and then stand up and say "Imma let you finish...but my bad."

Its a quality that many lack nowadays. It's always somebody else's fault.
 
dasleben said:
@Autothrust Blue has it most accurately. We are skilled professionals, somewhat in our own niche. However, we are (for the most part) labor. Some pilots blend white collar or blue collar work, depending on what they do for their operation. The pilot humping boxes in Alaska doesn't quite compare to the pilot also managing a Part 91 jet.
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So with that said, would you have considered me in my former field a "professional?" I was an auto mechanic at a dealership, working on cars (I.e. flying) and managing a group of guys below me responsible for their training currency, and them being productive(managing the airplane in a pt91 operation). Hardly white collar.

Call it labor if you want. We are blue collar. Skilled labor, yes. But not white collar, and not mixed collar.
 
mastermags said:
Hmm, methinks a lot of people in this thread have never worked a real blue collar job before.
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I have. Union to. I know what we do is skilled labor, just like the other job. And at the end of the day, they're both blue collar labor.
 
mshunter said:
So with that said, would you have considered me in my former field a "professional?" I was an auto mechanic at a dealership, working on cars (I.e. flying) and managing a group of guys below me responsible for their training currency, and them being productive(managing the airplane in a pt91 operation). Hardly white collar.

Call it labor if you want. We are blue collar. Skilled labor, yes. But not white collar, and not mixed collar.
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Yes. Skilled professional.

I've worked actual blue collar jobs, as well. Grinding steel beams to prep for the welders, basic drywall work, loading moving trucks, etc. I made $10/hr or thereabouts for that kind of work, and that was pretty decent. My job now, which involves showing up, doing lots of paperwork, and landing sometimes, does not at all match my definition of "blue collar." I, and the rest of my coworkers, have significant experience, and get paid a professional-level wage for it. The guys/gals loading the freight onto the jet behind us are labor as well (and we'd stand behind them as unionists if they ever struck), but there's a significant experience gap between an entry-level loader job and the people flying the jet.

Make no mistake, I know that I'm not in charge of running the operation, nor do I want to be. However, I get concerned when guys start tossing "blue collar" around so casually. Remember, we're negotiating our livelihoods every few years as experienced professionals in our field. That's how we need to see ourselves when the next CBA comes up for negotiation.

FYI, "white collar" and "blue collar" really don't mean much as long as you value yourself as a learned professional (which we are, regardless of what this judge says).
 
dasleben said:
Yes. Skilled professional.

I've worked actual blue collar jobs, as well. Grinding steel beams to prep for the welders, basic drywall work, loading moving trucks, etc. I made $10/hr or thereabouts for that kind of work, and that was pretty decent. My job now, which involves showing up, doing lots of paperwork, and landing sometimes, does not at all match my definition of "blue collar." I, and the rest of my coworkers, have significant experience, and get paid a professional-level wage for it. The guys/gals loading the freight onto the jet behind us are labor as well (and we'd stand behind them as unionists if they ever struck), but there's a significant experience gap between an entry-level loader job and the people flying the jet.

Make no mistake, I know that I'm not in charge of running the operation, nor do I want to be. However, I get concerned when guys start tossing "blue collar" around so casually. Remember, we're negotiating our livelihoods every few years as experienced professionals in our field. That's how we need to see ourselves when the next CBA comes up for negotiation.

FYI, "white collar" and "blue collar" really don't mean much as long as you value yourself as a learned professional (which we are, regardless of what this judge says).
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No, pilots are not.

The "learned professional" exemption allows an exemption from minimum wage and overtime pay provided under the FLSA. Section 13(a)(1) of the FLSA. It provides an exemption from both minimum wage and overtime pay for those employed as bona fide executive, administrative, professional, and outside sales employees.

To qualify for a "learned professional" employee exemption, all of the following tests must be passed:
  1. the employee must be compensated on a salary or fee basis (as defined in the regulations) at a rate not less than $455 per week;
  2. the employee's primary duty must be the performance of work requiring advanced knowledge, defined as work which is predominately intellectual in character and which includes work requiring the consistent exercise of discretion and judgment;
  3. the advanced knowledge must be in a field of science or learning; and
  4. the advanced knowledge must be customarily acquired by a prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction.

http://www.profsurv.com/magazine/article.aspx?i=70250
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We very clearly don't comply with the 3rd bullet point, and we barely comply with with the 2nd bullet point.
 
We're not learned professionals for a few reasons.

First, when we engage in debate after debate about whether we should be required to have an undergraduate degree to do this job (a prerequisite to a professional degree that is assumed), we're not professional OR learned. Those that have professional degrees don't argue about this issue, they do it as a BASE level of education, and THEN they go to work with school.

Second, we can't obtain a professional style graduate degree for this job. An ATP doesn't count, nor does a masters degree from Riddle (that's a researched based degree). My ATP ride was easier than my instrument ride.

Third, "learned professionals" tend to be those that hold jobs that are laborious from an academic perspective in that they require a high level of repetition, but also require a high level of academic involvement, yet don't do research. Medical doctors that practice as clinicians, lawyers that practice at the bar, etc.

Fourth, the level of academic work required to obtain a professional degree makes flying airplanes look like working at Joe's Crab Shack.

We're not learned professionals, and let me be the one to tell you guys, you don't want to be.
 
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