Pilot Pay:(

[Hootie]

Now all the Regionals can kiss my butt. I will not work those long days with that amount of pay in the right seat of an airplane. I'm going to training for Martinaire next week but that was my choice. I would rather fly all night all weather IFR for 24K a year and be home every morning rather than be gone and work the scheduals you Regional FO's do.

Oh yes. Been there. That theory was prevalent during my time at Amf. Yes I made less money my first year at a regional, but it is a MUCH easier job. The other three years since I have beat my old 135 pay while having way more time off. Also you have to remember that flying single pilot freight is 10 times more difficult and demanding than flying the riddle jet.

As for other peoples posts....you cant use colgan or lakes as true examples of the regional life.

 

[stensonb]

Yeah, I see your point. But when does the fare war end? Either way management will see to it a pilots/crew pay is cut before they take a hit. Heck, the way I see it pilots are subsidizing passenger fares with their salaries. Its an endless cycle. I guess my point is, even with a heavy dose of optimism things even in the best case scenario in my opinion are not going to change. Too many optimistic dreaming pilots combined + unscrupulous management make the industry work.

When an outside regulatory body demands a level of experience congruent with higher pay. For instance, what if there was a requirement for the crew to have a combined experience level of 15,000 TT? Regionals would HAVE to pay more for mid-level pilots just to simply hire those of us with less than 2000.

And how do they pay for this? Consider how willing the American public is to paying $20 PER BAG as a fee - just don't tied it in with the "cost" of the ticket they see when they search for the "lowest fare". How about a PILOT FEE of $10 per leg. Split it with the crew - and BAM - salary is doubled.

 

[splash]

Well, if we all set a cap of 30K to start our career or else we wait on tables for a few months in it's place I bet we could make a difference. Problem is that even waiting on tables is hard to come by these days because everyone is afraid of spending their money out to eat even. This is not the only industry that is kicking itself in the ass but I believe our actions can make it better. People can do anything. If we choose to cut each others throats like it has been for years then lets continue on this path. I can think of many other professions that people are waiting to start a career in but start at a livable wage. Flying is very relaxing for me but not being able to pay bills or get out of mama's house is not worth the job.

What is sad is that there are people here that think they can't change a damn thing.

 

[3green]

Good points again by everyone. For one I think you can change the industry. Don't put up with it! If you help keep the planes flying guess what you are supporting management. That is my opinion. If people sit here and say I'm going to help make a change do something. The people that are helping improve things the most from my point of view for currently employed pilots are the ones that have left the industry/refuse to accept that first year salary again.

Besides when was the last time you worked with a Capts who weren't nothing but company men? The people who could make some of the biggest difference where you work gladly bend over backwards saving fuel during taxi/flight, rush to get out/turn on time, and pull the parking brake early to stop your clock.

Like I said its the nature of the beast how the industry works. So I am not criticizing those that stay. If you enjoy it great, keep flying. But having blind faith that things will change is not realistic. No one is going to pay a pilot bag fee, companies aren't going to magically raise pilot wages and QOL won't improve. The aircraft are getting larger, not smaller at commuters. Management has been at war with flightcrews and it is not going to change. They will squeeze every ounce of work out of you for the lowest amount possible. It is a business model that survives and needs to have you believe in your "dream job". With the belief that the cockpit is still better than flying a desk, management knows if you have two seats available up front they will come...

 

[aerospacepilot]

Every year, the FAA releases data on the number of active pilots licenses. The 2009 data probably won't come out until March or April, but for now, let me show you some statistics.

Between 2007 and 2008:

There was an increase of 23,000 (to a total of 613,000) active pilot licenses in the US.

There was an increase of 11,000 active private pilot licenses
There was an increase of 10,000 commercial pilot licenses
There was an increase of 15,000 instrument ratings.
There was an increase of 3,000 airline transport pilot licenses.

The average age of a commercial pilot fell 1.3 years!

And the trend:
There was 1,000 more instrument ratings issued than in 2007.
There was 1,000 more commercial pilots licenses issued than in 2007.


I am not posting this for the purpose of sounding negative. These were some of the same statistics I looked at before I decided being a professional pilot was not right for me. I think there is a strong connection between this information and the video.

 

[fholbert]

These numbers don't reflect who died, retired or lost their medical.

Every year, the FAA releases data on the number of active pilots licenses. The 2009 data probably won't come out until March or April, but for now, let me show you some statistics.

Between 2007 and 2008:

There was an increase of 23,000 (to a total of 613,000) active pilot licenses in the US.

There was an increase of 11,000 active private pilot licenses
There was an increase of 10,000 commercial pilot licenses
There was an increase of 15,000 instrument ratings.
There was an increase of 3,000 airline transport pilot licenses.

The average age of a commercial pilot fell 1.3 years!

And the trend:
There was 1,000 more instrument ratings issued than in 2007.
There was 1,000 more commercial pilots licenses issued than in 2007.


I am not posting this for the purpose of sounding negative. These were some of the same statistics I looked at before I decided being a professional pilot was not right for me. I think there is a strong connection between this information and the video.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Nothing.

You see, this is the entire problem in this country. You are spring loaded to say "nothing" when someone asks you what's wrong with the "free market" system. Americans have all been brainwashed into thinking that it's heresy to ever question the capitalist system. Sorry, but the brainwashing just didn't take with me. Capitalism has its limits of usefulness, and sometimes a little regulation goes a long way. The government needs to step in and limit supply by raising standards. Allowing the market to determine wages and working conditions in this industry is absurd.

Don't be afraid to say that there's something wrong with capitalism. Time to fight back against the tea baggers.

 

[wheelsup]

The brass ring of the major airline job is what has transpired to make the commuters pay so little. If say top out pay at the majors was $50k/yr as an f/o and $100k/r as a cap you'd see a lot higher pay at the commuter level IMO. We will do anything to get our time and move on.

Another thing that has hurt is the constant bidding on RFP's, and ALPA has really dropped the ball. I'd support a commuter/outsourcing union that had all one contract, so the labor cost was taken out of the equation when it comes to getting flying. May the best management win...

Commuter pay isn't that bad however, my 4th year pay was just over $50k and I averaged around 12-13 days per month of working. That is 17-18 days off a month. That includes averaging in vacation, of which I had around 3/4 months worth.

Here's the thing, if my job skill is only worth "XX" than that is what it is worth. In my years since college my pay has averaged $15/hr (around $29,000/year) however I have been able to easily pay my bills and save. Would I like more? Yes but eventually America will have to come to grips with the fact that our jobs are going to other countries, their standard of living is going up while ours will be going down. You can make money in America so easily anyway doing business for yourself, people don't realize that and fall into the employee mentality.

 

[Patrick]

Here is an USA today article:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/travel/2010-02-18-pilots18_CV_N.htm

Someone really needs to shut Kit Darby up.

 

[skydog2]

You see, this is the entire problem in this country. You are spring loaded to say "nothing" when someone asks you what's wrong with the "free market" system. Americans have all been brainwashed into thinking that it's heresy to ever question the capitalist system. Sorry, but the brainwashing just didn't take with me. Capitalism has its limits of usefulness, and sometimes a little regulation goes a long way. The government needs to step in and limit supply by raising standards. Allowing the market to determine wages and working conditions in this industry is absurd.

Don't be afraid to say that there's something wrong with capitalism. Time to fight back against the tea baggers.

Ok, so what is the alternative to capitalism that you think is so much better?

 

[RPJ]

The brass ring of the major airline job is what has transpired to make the commuters pay so little. If say top out pay at the majors was $50k/yr as an f/o and $100k/r as a cap you'd see a lot higher pay at the commuter level IMO. We will do anything to get our time and move on.

Another thing that has hurt is the constant bidding on RFP's, and ALPA has really dropped the ball. I'd support a commuter/outsourcing union that had all one contract, so the labor cost was taken out of the equation when it comes to getting flying. May the best management win...

Commuter pay isn't that bad however, my 4th year pay was just over $50k and I averaged around 12-13 days per month of working. That is 17-18 days off a month. That includes averaging in vacation, of which I had around 3/4 months worth.

Here's the thing, if my job skill is only worth "XX" than that is what it is worth. In my years since college my pay has averaged $15/hr (around $29,000/year) however I have been able to easily pay my bills and save. Would I like more? Yes but eventually America will have to come to grips with the fact that our jobs are going to other countries, their standard of living is going up while ours will be going down. You can make money in America so easily anyway doing business for yourself, people don't realize that and fall into the employee mentality.

What regional are you flying for?

 

[C150J]

What regional are you flying for?

He might not feel comfortable saying, but I can tell you that I work for a similar regional and made:

1st year: $23,495
2nd year: $47,880
3rd year: $47,660 WITH 1)one month of voluntary time off without pay (would've cleared 50K).


We all deserve more, but I know where Wheels is coming from when he says he isn't uncomfortable.

 

[cmill]

You see, this is the entire problem in this country. You are spring loaded to say "nothing" when someone asks you what's wrong with the "free market" system. Americans have all been brainwashed into thinking that it's heresy to ever question the capitalist system. Sorry, but the brainwashing just didn't take with me. Capitalism has its limits of usefulness, and sometimes a little regulation goes a long way. The government needs to step in and limit supply by raising standards. Allowing the market to determine wages and working conditions in this industry is absurd.

Don't be afraid to say that there's something wrong with capitalism. Time to fight back against the tea baggers.

There aren't too many things I agree with you on, but that was a little slice of genius. Theres plenty of things that the government regulates, for the exact reason that the free market cant regulate itself in certain aspects.

 

[OnTheFly7]

These numbers don't reflect who died, retired or lost their medical.

Also, don't forget all of the foriegners who come to the states to earn their certificates and then move on to aviation careers in their homeland. Those are a lot of certificates that are earned and counted but not being put to use in this country.

 

[Xiph]

Ok, so what is the alternative to capitalism that you think is so much better?

See, this is the problem. It's not like it's either capitalism or socialism (the way that some people like to make it out to be). It's a scale, with a practically infinite number of possible positions on which to sit, from very socialist to very capitalist.

What ATN_Pilot speaks of is still capitalism, just with some more regulations in a few areas. It's a modification to capitalism, not an alternative to it. Europe has, on the whole, much more regulation in many more areas than the US, but Europe is still more capitalist than socialist. And even the regulation ATN_Pilot mentions wouldn't bring the US that much closer to where Europe sits on the scale.

 

[Trip7]

The brass ring of the major airline job is what has transpired to make the commuters pay so little. If say top out pay at the majors was $50k/yr as an f/o and $100k/r as a cap you'd see a lot higher pay at the commuter level IMO. We will do anything to get our time and move on.

Another thing that has hurt is the constant bidding on RFP's, and ALPA has really dropped the ball. I'd support a commuter/outsourcing union that had all one contract, so the labor cost was taken out of the equation when it comes to getting flying. May the best management win...

Commuter pay isn't that bad however, my 4th year pay was just over $50k and I averaged around 12-13 days per month of working. That is 17-18 days off a month. That includes averaging in vacation, of which I had around 3/4 months worth.

Here's the thing, if my job skill is only worth "XX" than that is what it is worth. In my years since college my pay has averaged $15/hr (around $29,000/year) however I have been able to easily pay my bills and save. Would I like more? Yes but eventually America will have to come to grips with the fact that our jobs are going to other countries, their standard of living is going up while ours will be going down. You can make money in America so easily anyway doing business for yourself, people don't realize that and fall into the employee mentality.

He might not feel comfortable saying, but I can tell you that I work for a similar regional and made:

1st year: $23,495
2nd year: $47,880
3rd year: $47,660 WITH 1)one month of voluntary time off without pay (would've cleared 50K).


We all deserve more, but I know where Wheels is coming from when he says he isn't uncomfortable.

Folks, these two posts should clearly illustrate pilots living the Colgan way of life are in the minority. Colgan is a very small regional airline when compared with the rest of the industry. Cohen might be an idiot but there is more fact than fiction when he quoted the average regional FO salary.

 

[C150J]

Folks, these two posts should clearly illustrate pilots living the Colgan way of life are in the minority. Colgan is a very small regional airline when compared with the rest of the industry. Cohen might be an idiot but there is more fact than fiction when he quoted the average regional FO salary.

Marcus,

I don't quite agree with you. Yes, the pay isn't terrible for a FIFTY SEAT operator. However, we are told day-in and day-out that we're too expensive, and that, if we don't make what Colgan/Pinnacle offer their pilots, we will be out of business. Look at every regional with a good contract: except for some outliers (Expressjet), the majority of operators with sub-par contracts have won all the recent RFPs. Have you ever been party to an RFP? They want every aspect of your operation broken down into hard numbers. If you don't think they're looking at pilot pay/rigs, think again.. This is certainly NOT to say there are aren't outstanding people working at these outfits. I truly hope they get what they deserve.


REGARDLESS, the schedules imposed upon us are ridiculous. Starting at 0455 and ending the next day at 2300 is completely unsafe and unhealthy. Our circadian rhythm is non-existant.

 

[C150J]

I'd also submit to you that if there wasn't corner-cutting when it comes to pilot compensation (whether it be in your paycheck or airline training environment) and schedules, the regional airline industry would also be non-existant.

It would be a major's wet-dream to outsource all of US flying to regional operators. Are you comfortable making $92/hour flying all over the country and submitting to the work rules of the worst regional operation for a career?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Ok, so what is the alternative to capitalism that you think is so much better?

No reason for me to even reply, because this man said it so well:

See, this is the problem. It's not like it's either capitalism or socialism (the way that some people like to make it out to be). It's a scale, with a practically infinite number of possible positions on which to sit, from very socialist to very capitalist.

What ATN_Pilot speaks of is still capitalism, just with some more regulations in a few areas. It's a modification to capitalism, not an alternative to it. Europe has, on the whole, much more regulation in many more areas than the US, but Europe is still more capitalist than socialist. And even the regulation ATN_Pilot mentions wouldn't bring the US that much closer to where Europe sits on the scale.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Folks, these two posts should clearly illustrate pilots living the Colgan way of life are in the minority. Colgan is a very small regional airline when compared with the rest of the industry. Cohen might be an idiot but there is more fact than fiction when he quoted the average regional FO salary.

You have no idea what you're talking about. You think you've got such a great pedestal from which to throw out your "knowledge". You know as much as any other 2 year FO around here, you've clearly got no idea what you're worth, and you're bringing the rest of us down. I don't want a second job "to make ends meet" because flying is fun. This job is supposed to pay the bills, and then some. If you're satisfied with your rate of pay over at good ol' ASA, then your MEC has already lost the war.