Pilot Pay:(

3green said:
Kudos to you. I wish I had thought that way before becoming an FO. But I did manage to grow a pair after being abused enough by CS and sitting reserve to decide to move onto greener pastures outside of professional aviation. Hobby flying on your own schedule and leisure is where its at!
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It's a good thing I did. I would have been one miserable and bitter SOB if I had gone through and done all the training and received a slot in a class.

I would have been that guy everyone hated to fly with because he was so bitter!
 
Matt13C said:
Also, the "if you dont like it, walk" mentality wont change anything for the better.

Furthermore, if everyone had that attitude we might all still be working in sweat shops for 12 hours a day for scraps of bread. It is because workers said enough, mobilized and stood up to management and demand respect.

Instead of telling people to shut up or leave, why not join them. You have nothing to lose, only something to gain. Would you not like to make a livable wage while having a better QOL?
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I agree. But people are lined up for Colgan and Eagle right now. There are plenty of people that have that attitude and accept the pay.

For the record, my pay is comparable to first year regional FO standards. And I am home every night. The simple joys of flight instructing.
 
matt152 said:
I agree. But people are lined up for Colgan and Eagle right now. There are plenty of people that have that attitude and accept the pay.

For the record, my pay is comparable to first year regional FO standards. And I am home every night. The simple joys of flight instructing.
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I understand that, but the point is just because they are lined up doesnt mean you, or others, shouldn't fight for what is right. Telling people to deal with it or leave only ensures things will get worse. Where 121 goes, so goes the industry eventually.

People get fed up with 121 so they go to 135 or 91. A flood of resumes there is just as bad for pilots pay and QOL as it is in the 121 world. Its all connected.
 
I understand what you guys are saying here. There are plenty of people that think they can make a difference by joining the party rather than leaving it. But the way the system is setup who gets the short end? Sure ain't the companies who want the glut of highly trained pilots knocking down their doors(ie, AE, Colgan, etc) and it isn't the consumers who want the cheap ticket.

My thing is if you want to work in the industry thats fine, just don't expect it to change because pilots want it to. Enjoy the view, uniform, travel, low pay, CS, hotels, etc whatever makes you happy.

Short of striking and guaranteeing you'll lose your job what course of action will make the companies listen??? uh nuthin... But seriously, please don't do any job action guys, I still need to travel for vacation.
 
Forgive my ignorance but this is maily for the regional airline pay? My good bud made $160K for Southwest his 3rd year...lots of overtime but still good money. Add in his $40k military retirement and $200K third year out isn't bad. My old CO made $290K the same year, though he had been with SW for about 7 or 8 years. Add in his $50k retirement and he's kind of banking as well. I assume not all the major's pay like Soutwest, with their overtime sort of thing. My old boss at Delta made maybe $80K or so his third year with them.
 
bunk22 said:
Forgive my ignorance but this is maily for the regional airline pay? My good bud made $160K for Southwest his 3rd year...lots of overtime but still good money. Add in his $40k military retirement and $200K third year out isn't bad. My old CO made $290K the same year, though he had been with SW for about 7 or 8 years. Add in his $50k retirement and he's kind of banking as well. I assume not all the major's pay like Soutwest, with their overtime sort of thing. My old boss at Delta made maybe $80K or so his third year with them.
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first year at CO is 29k and no health insurance.
 
first year at CO is 29k and no health insurance.
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:yeahthat:

Sure SW makes a grip of money. More power to that pilot group for making bank. But just like UPS they are today's flavor of the month. Everyone talks about a cyclical industry. Guess what just like the industry has ups and downs as a whole so do individual companies. Look, the reality is the companies need to make money. I don't care if your SW, UPS, Fedex, regional/commuter. If the ink is in the red, management is going to find a way to save money. This isn't a charity. The management knows pilots love to fly and have worked hard to get in that seat. They just don't want to pay you what YOU think your worth and it isn't personal. Just remember going into this it isn't going to be their bonuses that get dinged when it comes time to cut spending...
 
Matt13C said:
It's about the only thing that isn't regulated in some way in the Airline world.

Also, the "if you dont like it, walk" mentality wont change anything for the better. At some point, someone needs to stand up for what is right. There is no reason what so ever a person who is responsible for countless lives every year should be paid less than a worker at McDonalds, first year on the job is not an excuse.

Furthermore, if everyone had that attitude we might all still be working in sweat shops for 12 hours a day for scraps of bread. It is because workers said enough, mobilized and stood up to management and demanded respect that we have the 8 hour day and 5 day week.

Instead of telling people to shut up or leave, why not join them. You have nothing to lose, only something to gain. Would you not like to make a livable wage while having a better QOL?
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Not that you're wrong but your opinion goes against all the principles of capitalism, which is the foundation of the US ecomoy
 
I think it is honestly a good thing that the public be made aware of the low pay pilots at the regionals make. Around 6 or so years ago I was working as a security officer for a university in Oklahoma City. My pay alone was 20K a year on top of a teachers retirement fund, health, dental and all that was paid by the University. I was standing outside with another guard one night about 2 months before I went to ATP to finish my ratings(Just had 120 hours and my PPL). We were right on final approach into KOKC and he looks at me and says, "I'm sure you will go on to better paying things when you leave here, I mean pilots make a crap ton of money. I think they are OVERPAID." I told him what a first year and a second year FO makes at a Regional and he just stood there with his mouth open. "You mean to say you are going to leave here, teach people how to fly and in a year or two move on to that?". I replied with a yes because you have to pay your dues. That was my thought process back then. Now all the Regionals can kiss my butt. I will not work those long days with that amount of pay in the right seat of an airplane. I'm going to training for Martinaire next week but that was my choice. I would rather fly all night all weather IFR for 24K a year and be home every morning rather than be gone and work the scheduals you Regional FO's do. More power to you and more power to the guys flooding them with resumes. Mine won't go near a desk. I'll hold off with this and hopefully find something better 4 or 5 years down the road in corporate, air ambulance or charter. That way I also don't run that fun risk of being furloughed, out of work again, and begging for a job. Point being, let the public know about pilot pay. Will it do anything, No. Will it get some respect back for those out there busting their humps? I really do hope so. There was a time when pilots were treated like gold in this country. It should always be that way.
 
bunk22 said:
Forgive my ignorance but this is maily for the regional airline pay? My good bud made $160K for Southwest his 3rd year...lots of overtime but still good money. Add in his $40k military retirement and $200K third year out isn't bad. My old CO made $290K the same year, though he had been with SW for about 7 or 8 years. Add in his $50k retirement and he's kind of banking as well. I assume not all the major's pay like Soutwest, with their overtime sort of thing. My old boss at Delta made maybe $80K or so his third year with them.
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While these numbers may be fact, the problem is the disconnect between the newly hired pilots and the established old-farts. Additionally, the regional airline biz does nothing, financially, to encourage old-farts to stick around....which dooms the regionals to "new guys" with "new guy" experience and "new guy" decision making skills.

Some may say "the average FO on a regional makes $30k" - to which I respond, "the average person has less than two arms"....see how my average doesn't seem right? but, mathematically, it is (human_arms/humans < 2)
 
bunk22 said:
Forgive my ignorance but this is maily for the regional airline pay? My good bud made $160K for Southwest his 3rd year...lots of overtime but still good money. Add in his $40k military retirement and $200K third year out isn't bad. My old CO made $290K the same year, though he had been with SW for about 7 or 8 years. Add in his $50k retirement and he's kind of banking as well. I assume not all the major's pay like Soutwest, with their overtime sort of thing. My old boss at Delta made maybe $80K or so his third year with them.
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Bunk, your figures are accurate, which is why major airline management will do everything in its power to outsource flying to regionals. Why pay 737 pilots $160K for three flights a day between PHL-RDU when you can pay a regional crew $30K to fly that route five times?

What's so "regional" about IAH-YYZ or MSY-PHL? Aircraft manufacturers and mainline management struck gold when they created a 442KTAS, 50-seat turbofan aircraft with a 1,200NM range and labeled it a "regional jet." Once they let that camel's nose under the tent, they just stretched it out, leading to 90-100 seat variants that pay similarly. The career path has shifted from a couple years in a 30-50 seat turboprop to a potential lifetime in an RJ, which is why regional pilot pay is more unacceptable than ever. That being said, Trip7 is right: we are failing ourselves in many ways. A combination of outdated professional standards and ignorant pilots (MYSELF INCLUDED) who got into this game thinking we'd be in the left seat by now (or even a right seat of a major) has contributed to this.

The ONLY thing that's keeping every single domestic flight from being operated by the regionals is scope, which has eroded in the past couple decades.
 
avi8tor1983, C150J, stensonb all made great points.

But all in all, I can't imagine myself doing anything else."
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Management loves hearing this stuff. Anyone actually believe pay is going up with people having this mentality? Heck, I've said it myself. Plenty have said it, that's why there will never be a shortage of pilots. There may be a shortage of pilots willing to work for a certain wage(me included) but plenty will take our place...

But that is the nature of the beast. If there are those that are pilots willing to put up with it. More power to them. Just realize that "cheapest fare" button is not going away on that airline booking website and your income will reflect it...
 
3green said:
avi8tor1983, C150J, stensonb all made great points.



Management loves hearing this stuff. Anyone actually believe pay is going up with people having this mentality? Heck, I've said it myself. Plenty have said it, that's why there will never be a shortage of pilots. There may be a shortage of pilots willing to work for a certain wage(me included) but plenty will take our place...

But that is the nature of the beast. If there are those that are pilots willing to put up with it. More power to them. Just realize that "cheapest fare&quot; button is not going away on that airline booking website and your income will reflect it...
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Good points, except for the "cheapest fare" has more to do with a fare war caused by excess capacity in the industry than pilot pay. If United and CAL merge that excess capacity will start to disappear
 
Matt13C said:
Instead of telling people to shut up or leave, why not join them. You have nothing to lose, only something to gain. Would you not like to make a livable wage while having a better QOL?
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I know some ex-ATC guys who might disagree with the nothing to lose comment. ;)
 
Yeah, I see your point. But when does the fare war end? Either way management will see to it a pilots/crew pay is cut before they take a hit. Heck, the way I see it pilots are subsidizing passenger fares with their salaries. Its an endless cycle. I guess my point is, even with a heavy dose of optimism things even in the best case scenario in my opinion are not going to change. Too many optimistic dreaming pilots combined + unscrupulous management make the industry work.
 
Joe Gremlin said:
I know some ex-ATC guys who might disagree with the nothing to lose comment. ;)
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I assume you are talking about the ones who were fired by Regan? As much as I dont agree with this president, I dont think he is going to fire a group of pilots if they strike. Especially if they complete all steps in the negotiation process require before they strike. He might have a hard time getting re-elected.

Point taken though :beer:.
 
Matt13C said:
I assume you are talking about the ones who were fired by Regan? As much as I dont agree with this president, I dont think he is going to fire a group of pilots if they strike. Especially if they complete all steps in the negotiation process require before they strike. He might have a hard time getting re-elected.

Point taken though :beer:.
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Getting fired isn't always the only thing you have to lose. There have been strikes by some unions which resulted in employees being out of work for months with no pay, only to return to the same or slightly worse pay when the strike finally ended. I'm not saying unions are good or bad, I'm just saying be very careful about using the nothing to lose phrase because you would be amazed by how much there is to lose even when you think you've already lost it all.
 
Joe Gremlin said:
Getting fired isn't always the only thing you have to lose. There have been strikes by some unions which resulted in employees being out of work for months with no pay, only to return to the same or slightly worse pay when the strike finally ended. I'm not saying unions are good or bad, I'm just saying be very careful about using the nothing to lose phrase because you would be amazed by how much there is to lose even when you think you've already lost it all.
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yeah, its amazing how the job doesnt seem that bad when you dont have it anymore and the money starts to run out.
 
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