Pilot Error to Blame in PHL Aborted T/O

ASpilot2be said:
Do most airplanes do that? The SAAB has T/O inhibit mode. It inhibits most of the warnings except for a select few.
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That is correct. Every jet I have flown has some sort of inhibit. The 737 is a bit on the stupid side, but the real boeings and airbuses have very similar logic where nothing but the worst stuff is show from 80 knots to a certain altitude.

The thrust not set- select TOGA caution in this flight's case comes at 60 knots, which is before takeoff inhibit takes effect. Above 80 knots, almost no cautions and only master warnings will show.

At 80 knots, due to the speed and the thrust levers being out of takeoff position/not in idle the plane says "RETARD RETARD" (directed at you personally, I assume) to indicate that it's not sure what is going on, so I'm going to go into the landing phase of the flight warning computer.
 
Refresh my memory, I understand that with no FLX temp set with thrust in FLX you get the caution telling you to go TOGA and if you don't then at 80 knots you get the RETARD callout, but in this case when you ignore all that and continue, just what exactly is the thrust set to? 75% N1? How does it decide what thrust to give in FLX with no temp set? Sorry I can't recall at the moment.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Refresh my memory, I understand that with no FLX temp set with thrust in FLX you get the caution telling you to go TOGA and if you don't then at 80 knots you get the RETARD callout, but in this case when you ignore all that and continue, just what exactly is the thrust set to? 75% N1? How does it decide what thrust to give in FLX with no temp set? Sorry I can't recall at the moment.
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There are three other letters associated with the flex detent... Your answer lies there.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
There are three other letters associated with the flex detent... Your answer lies there.
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Ahh makes sense. Figures ;)

So they would have had more than enough power had they continued the takeoff and climb. Luckily no one was really hurt bad, and when there are selfies coming off the evac slides, it probably wasn't as bad as it looked.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
That is correct. Every jet I have flown has some sort of inhibit. The 737 is a bit on the stupid side, but the real boeings and airbuses have very similar logic where nothing but the worst stuff is show from 80 knots to a certain altitude.

The thrust not set- select TOGA caution in this flight's case comes at 60 knots, which is before takeoff inhibit takes effect. Above 80 knots, almost no cautions and only master warnings will show.

At 80 knots, due to the speed and the thrust levers being out of takeoff position/not in idle the plane says "RETARD RETARD" (directed at you personally, I assume) to indicate that it's not sure what is going on, so I'm going to go into the landing phase of the flight warning computer.
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Must be nice. I've never had that.
Actually had a Lear 35 once that would flash the master warning light with no faults. Wrote that up a dozen times i think. @arkflyr might remember the lear, I think it was 39DK
 
What I don't get is, if you're going to make these mistakes and continue on etc etc, how do you not pick a conservative as hell VR if you're just pulling one out of thin air.
 
Kingairer said:
What I don't get is, if you're going to make these mistakes and continue on etc etc, how do you not pick a conservative as hell VR if you're just pulling one out of thin air.
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Clearly they didn't get what was going on....As far as they thought, speeds were set and fix temp was there...
 
mikecweb said:
Must be nice. I've never had that.
Actually had a Lear 35 once that would flash the master warning light with no faults. Wrote that up a dozen times i think. @arkflyr might remember the lear, I think it was 39DK
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I can't remember that far back but they, the Lear 35s, would definitely come down with a case of the weird gremlins from time to time. Those things are so old they don't even have a takeoff warning system. I know of a crew that took off flaps 40 one time because the got distracted doing the spoileron check.

The more modern airplanes I fly now all have a takeoff warning and ECAS inhibit function for take off.
 
Kingairer said:
What I don't get is, if you're going to make these mistakes and continue on etc etc, how do you not pick a conservative as hell VR if you're just pulling one out of thin air.
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Or in that case, what I would do is wait for it to either fly itself off, or at about 2000' runway remaining ease it off then and that way at least you're rotating thinking "regardless of the speed it's time to start rotating so this should work."
 
Kingairer said:
Im not sure what youre saying, but im with you in spirit!
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I'm saying if you lose airspeed data (not saying this is the case here) or, slightly lesser problematic, lose the V-speeds and don't remember what they are even close to, I would just let it fly itself off or rotate with around 2000-3000 feet remaining.

I know of a crew that had a significant disparity in airspeeds arise at about 120kts and they aborted. I strongly disagree with not taking that problem into the air; rotate before the end of the runway and pitch for the usual initial climb attitude.

If you abort, you're of course betting that your supposed unreliable airspeed data is reliable enough to tell you that you are indeed still below V1. But if it really is unreliable, then the speed may very well now be above V1.
 
Nick said:
I'm saying if you lose airspeed data (not saying this is the case here) or, slightly lesser problematic, lose the V-speeds and don't remember what they are even close to, I would just let it fly itself off or rotate with around 2000-3000 feet remaining.

I know of a crew that had a significant disparity in airspeeds arise at about 120kts and they aborted. I strongly disagree with not taking that problem into the air; rotate before the end of the runway and pitch for the usual initial climb attitude.

If you abort, you're of course betting that your supposed unreliable airspeed data is reliable enough to tell you that you are indeed still below V1. But if it really is unreliable, then the speed may very well now be above V1.
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I disagree on all but the shortest of runways.

Why? Ground speed readout. That'll give you a pretty good idea of how close to correct the airspeed is. If I'm on a long runway, I'm probably stopping. Short one...probably not.

But I really don't like the idea of going flying without knowing what your airspeed is. If it's obvious which one is wrong, that's one thing, but if you really don't know...
 
Screaming_Emu said:
I disagree on all but the shortest of runways.

Why? Ground speed readout. That'll give you a pretty good idea of how close to correct the airspeed is. If I'm on a long runway, I'm probably stopping. Short one...probably not.

But I really don't like the idea of going flying without knowing what your airspeed is. If it's obvious which one is wrong, that's one thing, but if you really don't know...
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You can crosscheck against the standby indicator, then compare it to the ground speed. If you get different results between your ground speed, airspeed on the captain side, airspeed on the FO side, and standby airspeed, then you might have a problem.

But 2 out of 3 probably gets you pretty damned close to which one is giving you good information, and you can figure this all out in about half a second.

I'd rather take that half second to figure out what I'm looking at than do a high speed rejection. Known pitch and power settings will take you 90% of the way even if you had NO airspeed indication. Most of us could probably fly our airplanes just fine with no instrumentation on a VMC day.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
I disagree on all but the shortest of runways.

Why? Ground speed readout. That'll give you a pretty good idea of how close to correct the airspeed is. If I'm on a long runway, I'm probably stopping. Short one...probably not.

But I really don't like the idea of going flying without knowing what your airspeed is. If it's obvious which one is wrong, that's one thing, but if you really don't know...
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That's a lot to do in a short time if you're at 120 knots and trying to stay on the runway.
 
I should also add, if you didn't brief that you'd abort for airspeed miscompare messages above 80 knots, then don't above for airspeed miscompare messages above 80 knots.

We brief for a reason, and making up reasons to abort on the fly is a pretty bad idea.
 
Seggy said:
Reading it wrong.

I am sure @PeanuckleCRJ will correct me if I am wrong, but you don't get minor stuff come up on the ECAM during the takeoff phase.
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Correct, just like a 76.

The plane will basically inhibit most nuisance ECAMS and lights through various phases except for the important stuff.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
That is correct. Every jet I have flown has some sort of inhibit. The 737 is a bit on the stupid side, but the real boeings and airbuses have very similar logic where nothing but the worst stuff is show from 80 knots to a certain altitude.

The thrust not set- select TOGA caution in this flight's case comes at 60 knots, which is before takeoff inhibit takes effect. Above 80 knots, almost no cautions and only master warnings will show.

At 80 knots, due to the speed and the thrust levers being out of takeoff position/not in idle the plane says "RETARD RETARD" (directed at you personally, I assume) to indicate that it's not sure what is going on, so I'm going to go into the landing phase of the flight warning computer.
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Damn kids.

Always say it more eloquent that I could ever.
 
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