Picking up IFR in the air/entering E

J

JordanD

Here so I don’t get fined
I've done this once or twice from controlled fields, but I'm still kind of unclear on the whole entering controlled airspace thing. If we elect to pick up our IFR clearance in the air (say for better radio reception or whatever reason, does this mean we must have our clearance before we enter class E, even in VFR conditions? Or are we just considered another VFR flight until they have time to give us our clearance? It seems kind of impractical for them to get us our clearance before 1,200, 700 AGL, or as soon as our wheels break ground. Is this a pain in the butt for you guys if someone departs VFR and you're a little too busy to get us a clearance at the moment?
What about a situation where we are in actual, class E begins at 700AGL (or the surface) and ATC instructs us to enter controlled airspace on a heading that an ODP would prevent us from turning to at such a low altitude?
 
If you enter E you need to maintain VFR conditions until you accept the IFR clearance. So just dont fly into any clouds until the clearance is issued.

I'm not a controller but I'd say they will much prefer you take off VFR from an uncontrolled airport and get your IFR clearance in the air with a radar signature, rather than shut down the entire area for the next 10 minutes to accommodate a telephone clearance. You should file on the ground beforehand if you can though as that will save them and you time once in the air. If you file on the ground then you're already in the system so it's no huge burden and they dont have to drop everything because they know you're safely operating VFR currently, unless you give them an indication that you need it now due to deteriorating conditions. If you need it fast just let them know what's going on and they'll probably work quickly to keep you safe. Just one of those things where you want to do as much as you can to help them out, be in the system, let them know what you need, dont be impatient if you dont need it right away, etc.

Not sure I understand that last scenario, but you dont need a clearance to fly an ODP so just fly it for departure and then as instructed thereafter.
 
rframe said:
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Not sure I understand that last scenario, but you dont need a clearance to fly an ODP so just fly it for departure and then as instructed thereafter.
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Just something that happened last time I departed an uncontrolled field after calling clearance on the ground. They said enter controlled airspace heading 180, we departed runway 02. Lets say class E begins at 700AGL. What if we were IFR and a turn to 180 before 700 AGL wasn't practical or safe? What's the protocol there?
 
I'm having some trouble visualizing the situation, but I guess the general rule is that if I dont feel its safe then decline the clearance as 'unable' and recommend an alternative.
 
If there was an ODP you should be able to complete it before reaching controlled airspace. Once in controlled airspace, the vector assigned by ATC assures separation from prominent obstructions in accordance with our rules regarding vectors below the Minimum Vectoring Altitude for departing aircraft. I've always worked airspace where we were able to issue vectors to departing aircraft and keep them clear of high obstacles in accordance with our manual. At airports where this isn't possible, I expect ATC would not give you such instructions.

As to your question about getting the IFR clearance before entering Echo airspace, that is not necessary. You're simply VFR until you receive your clearance. The obvious limit to this is that you need to get your clearance prior to entering Class A airspace, if you fly an aircraft capable of that
 
I was considering something similar the other day. I was departing from an airport where class E airspace goes to the surface. Ceiling was 800 feet, so I got my clearance on the ground before departing Runway 31. Clearance was to "enter controlled airspace heading 090". Technically that's impossible, so although I don't know if it was correct, I followed the ODP (climb to 1600ft AGL before turning).

I guess the way I see it is ATC is blocking out a big chunk of airspace for me, so I'm more concerned about hitting terrain or a tower than another airplane immediately after takeoff.
 
JordanD said:
What about a situation where we are in actual, class E begins at 700AGL (or the surface) and ATC instructs us to enter controlled airspace on a heading that an ODP would prevent us from turning to at such a low altitude?
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How are you in actual without a clearance?

I think you are trying to think too deeply on the airspace system. It has one function, to clearly identify where and what the VFR cloud clearances are and to what possible equipment is required.
Simply, don't get too hung up on names, "controlled" (E) and "uncontrolled" (G) because neither guarantees a thing. i.e. There is a lot of E airspace out there that radar doesn't reach.
 
auw2fly said:
I was considering something similar the other day. I was departing from an airport where class E airspace goes to the surface. Ceiling was 800 feet, so I got my clearance on the ground before departing Runway 31. Clearance was to "enter controlled airspace heading 090". Technically that's impossible, so although I don't know if it was correct, I followed the ODP (climb to 1600ft AGL before turning).

I guess the way I see it is ATC is blocking out a big chunk of airspace for me, so I'm more concerned about hitting terrain or a tower than another airplane immediately after takeoff.
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With the echo being a surface area, the "enter controlled airspace" verbiage was improper. It should have just been something like "fly heading" or "turn left/right heading." Assuming you meet IFR climb performance, the heading given by ATC assures you separation from obstructions.
 
If there is an ODP the controller is supposed to state "Comply with local published departure procedures, then XXX..." and if the airport is class E to the surface, then any "upon entering controlled airspace" clearance is obviously not correct.

The problem with ODP's is they apply to some airports and not others, some runways and not others and I know of at least one that is dependent on visual conditions. It can be an easy mistake to omit the "comply with" and use an "when entering controlled airspace" due to just plain forgetting. As a pilot, probably the best way to handle it is after the readback say something to the effect of hey you want me to do the ODP? Or I'd like to do the ODP before that heading.

As far as getting a clearance in the air. Its absolutely appreciated if you can maintain VFR comfortably while airborne in case there is a wait. If you are airborne more than 30 minutes prior to your proposed departure time, we won't have the strip. If you're leaving 2 or 3 hours after your proposed departure depending on the time parameters in effect, your flight plan may be expired. If you filed right before you started the engine, the flight plan may not have ping ponged its way through Lock Mart, to the Centers HOST to the TRACONs FDIO printers (if applicable). Those three instances are the most common I see that cause problems when trying to pick up a clearance airborne. Of course those are only problems when the pilot assumed they'd have a clearance 3 minutes after callup and are about to punch through some clouds.

It is greatly appreciated though if you can. It keeps the airport open and I'm not having to protect that airspace.
 
FM_Weasel said:
If there was an ODP you should be able to complete it before reaching controlled airspace.
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That can be rarely the case. When controlled airspace is at 1500agl, and the ODP has you climbing 7000ft and 20 miles in some direction. This is quite common.
And I guess I've never been assigned a heading from an uncontrolled field. We have to fly the ODP anyways... I really don't know why a controller would have you deviate from it.

Also something of note to the OP, when departing VFR and picking up you clearance in the air, not only do you have to maintain VFR before your accept the clearance, but you need to be able to climb to the MEA, MVA or whatever minimum altitude the controller needs in VMC as well. There are a lot of times the field is VFR. Say OVC030, 10SM, but in order for the controller to issue me my IFR clearance he needs me at 5000agl or "able to maintain my own terrain and obstacle clearance". If I enter the clouds at 3000, obviously I can't do that. Now I'm in the air VFR, but unable to get IFR due to my low altitude. The correct move would have been to get the IFR clearance on the ground, and fly the ODP to whatever the minimum altitude is.
 
z987k said:
That can be rarely the case. When controlled airspace is at 1500agl, and the ODP has you climbing 7000ft and 20 miles in some direction. This is quite common.
And I guess I've never been assigned a heading from an uncontrolled field. We have to fly the ODP anyways... I really don't know why a controller would have you deviate from it.

Also something of note to the OP, when departing VFR and picking up you clearance in the air, not only do you have to maintain VFR before your accept the clearance, but you need to be able to climb to the MEA, MVA or whatever minimum altitude the controller needs in VMC as well. There are a lot of times the field is VFR. Say OVC030, 10SM, but in order for the controller to issue me my IFR clearance he needs me at 5000agl or "able to maintain my own terrain and obstacle clearance". If I enter the clouds at 3000, obviously I can't do that. Now I'm in the air VFR, but unable to get IFR due to my low altitude. The correct move would have been to get the IFR clearance on the ground, and fly the ODP to whatever the minimum altitude is.
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You must deal with center airspace.

5-6-3. VECTORS BELOW MINIMUM ALTITUDE
Except in en route automated environments in areas where more than 3 miles separation minima is required, you may vector a departing IFR aircraft, or one executing a missed approach, within 40 miles of the radar antenna and before it reaches the minimum altitude for IFR operations if separation from prominent obstacles shown on the radar scope is applied in accordance with the following:
a. If the flight path is 3 miles or more from the obstacle and the aircraft is climbing to an altitude at least 1,000 feet above the obstacle, vector the aircraft to maintain at least 3 miles separation from the obstacle until the aircraft reports leaving an altitude above the obstacle.
b. If the flight path is less than 3 miles from the obstacle and the aircraft is climbing to an altitude at least 1,000 feet above the obstacle, vector the aircraft to increase lateral separation from the obstacle until the 3 mile minimum is achieved or until the aircraft reports leaving an altitude above the obstacle.
REFERENCE-
P/CG Term - Obstacle.
P/CG Term - Obstruction.
P/CG Term - Prominent Obstacle.
c. At those locations where diverse vector areas (DVA) have been established, terminal radar facilities may vector aircraft below the MVA/MIA within those areas and along those routes described in facility directives.
 
genot said:
You must deal with center airspace.

5-6-3. VECTORS BELOW MINIMUM ALTITUDE
Except in en route automated environments in areas where more than 3 miles separation minima is required, you may vector a departing IFR aircraft, or one executing a missed approach, within 40 miles of the radar antenna and before it reaches the minimum altitude for IFR operations if separation from prominent obstacles shown on the radar scope is applied in accordance with the following:
a. If the flight path is 3 miles or more from the obstacle and the aircraft is climbing to an altitude at least 1,000 feet above the obstacle, vector the aircraft to maintain at least 3 miles separation from the obstacle until the aircraft reports leaving an altitude above the obstacle.
b. If the flight path is less than 3 miles from the obstacle and the aircraft is climbing to an altitude at least 1,000 feet above the obstacle, vector the aircraft to increase lateral separation from the obstacle until the 3 mile minimum is achieved or until the aircraft reports leaving an altitude above the obstacle.
REFERENCE-
P/CG Term - Obstacle.
P/CG Term - Obstruction.
P/CG Term - Prominent Obstacle.
c. At those locations where diverse vector areas (DVA) have been established, terminal radar facilities may vector aircraft below the MVA/MIA within those areas and along those routes described in facility directives.
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Well I deal with tracons and centers, but most uncontrolled airports are served by center. At least in my part of the country(PNW through the northern rockies). End up getting a lot of flights to county airports in E OR & WA, N. ID and W. MT. There's pretty crappy radar coverage in those areas. Usually not much below 3-5000agl.
 
z987k said:
Well I deal with tracons and centers, but most uncontrolled airports are served by center. At least in my part of the country(PNW through the northern rockies). End up getting a lot of flights to county airports in E OR & WA, N. ID and W. MT. There's pretty crappy radar coverage in those areas. Usually not much below 3-5000agl.
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Fair enough, I assumed you were in a mountainous area as it was. Working in the flat lands with at one point a busy training airport under the middle marker, seeing you say you'd never been giving a heading at an uncontrolled field, that was culture shock enough.
 
genot said:
Fair enough, I assumed you were in a mountainous area as it was. Working in the flat lands with at one point a busy training airport under the middle marker, seeing you say you'd never been giving a heading at an uncontrolled field, that was culture shock enough.
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I just glanced through my approach plates, and I don't think there's a single airport I go into without an published ODP or SID. Now the SIDs we get assigned are all fly runway/assigned heading, radar vectors.
I learned to fly in IL, and while it's been awhile I don't remember ever getting a heading from an uncontrolled field.
 
Or if you're close to a busy airport. That's the only time I've ever gotten a heading. Leaving STP after the tower closed for example.
 
All pretty unusual to me. Just last week I had two ready to go on opposite ends on the same runway with clearances and hold for release literally 45 seconds before the tower opened. The first aircraft called for release ready to go ASAP on the active prior to tower opening as they'd taken the same strip of concrete nose to nose in between the opening tower controller shouting at me over the land line THEY'RE BOTH ON THE RUNWAY!!! Other airplane told me they were on the opposite end with the other plane assuming they were good to go and awaiting the magic words released for departure.

Not all uncontrolled Ops are the same.
 
That's not your fault or anything to do with ATC. That was two morons not talking to each other on CTAF. Even more stupid for taking the runway BEFORE getting a release. If they got a 20 min hold for release were they going to sit on a runway for 20mins? My god people are stupid.
 
Not arguing any of that. I was dumbfounded myself. The point was not all uncontrolled fields are ghost towns.
 
JordanD said:
I've done this once or twice from controlled fields, but I'm still kind of unclear on the whole entering controlled airspace thing. If we elect to pick up our IFR clearance in the air (say for better radio reception or whatever reason, does this mean we must have our clearance before we enter class E, even in VFR conditions? Or are we just considered another VFR flight until they have time to give us our clearance? It seems kind of impractical for them to get us our clearance before 1,200, 700 AGL, or as soon as our wheels break ground. Is this a pain in the butt for you guys if someone departs VFR and you're a little too busy to get us a clearance at the moment?
What about a situation where we are in actual, class E begins at 700AGL (or the surface) and ATC instructs us to enter controlled airspace on a heading that an ODP would prevent us from turning to at such a low altitude?
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IMC? - Yes. You must have a clearance before entering controlled airspace.

VMC? - No, just blast off and pick up your clearance in the air Clarence. They think you're just some yea-hoo with an airplane until you call em' up and ask for a clearance. There are a lot of places out there where you can't even get radar contact until 8,000' or so, and there even more places where they won't be able to hear you until you get up at least that high.
 
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