Picking up IFR in the air/entering E

ppragman said:
IMC? - Yes. You must have a clearance before entering controlled airspace.
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Don't you really need it before you bust any cloud/vis minima? If you're in Class G and in clouds, when VFR, isn't that big problem? I think I know what you're trying to say but I'm not sure the quoted text really clarifies anything for the OP.
 
FM_Weasel said:
Don't you really need it before you bust any cloud/vis minima? If you're in Class G and in clouds, when VFR, isn't that big problem? I think I know what you're trying to say but I'm not sure the quoted text really clarifies anything for the OP.
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Technically you don't need an IFR clearance in class G.
 
FM_Weasel said:
You just said you don't need an IFR clearance in Class G. I don't understand
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You can fly IFR in class G without a clearance because it not controlled airspace. The 1 mile clear of clouds is only for people operating VFR. You can legally fly IFR all day long in class G airpsace without a clearance from controllers though because it is uncontrolled airspace.
 
Ozelot said:
Like KBIS at 3 am ;-)
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Yep! Lol, I forgot you were out there making sure I went in the proper direction. Now that I'm back up in Alaska, there's another, potentially more exciting complication. There are places I can go to IFR, where there are no phones, no RCO, and no reception to ZAN under 4 or 5k...meaning how do I leave there, or hell, even cancel when the weather is crummy?
 
Inverted25 said:
You can fly IFR in class G without a clearance because it not controlled airspace. The 1 mile clear of clouds is only for people operating VFR. You can legally fly IFR all day long in class G airpsace without a clearance from controllers though because it is uncontrolled airspace.
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Interesting, I had no idea. I always assumed IFR flight involved ATC clearances. I don't have my IR yet, it's next on the to-do list.
 
Sure, nice "FAR" trick to pull out with your buddies sitting around the flight school but in practice, http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/o_n_o/docs/Aviation/3935.pdf
There is precedent.

Besides that, you have still satisfy things like "minimum IFR Altitudes" and "direction of flight", which means for the most part, most of us are not finding "G" that goes up that high by our home-drome, ...to still be hit with careless and reckless.
 
I'd say the guy in that ruling got slapped not because he departed G in IFR but he did it to spite ATC who wouldn't give him a release.

Even if you get a "clearance" on the ground at a class G airport, you have zero protection because you are operating in uncontrolled airspace. Minimum altitudes do not apply during takeoff. If you know the terrain and can define a safe departure profile, I see no reason to slap this with the blanket reckless. In some cases yes it might be, but in other cases it should be quite reasonable to depart, climb through weather and obtain a clearance to enter E when you get high enough to talk with Center. Now I'm not necessarily talking about a 700' class E shelf, but there are plenty of little airports out here with no approaches and E starts up 4,000-6,000' AGL.
 
FM_Weasel said:
Interesting, I had no idea. I always assumed IFR flight involved ATC clearances. I don't have my IR yet, it's next on the to-do list.
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It's a "1%" situation. The vast majority of the time you will not experience that particular legal opportunity.
 
rframe said:
I'd say the guy in that ruling got slapped not because he departed G in IFR but he did it to spite ATC who wouldn't give him a release.
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It sounds almost like he was not given a release because of flow control (see page 4). Want to have your day go pear-shaped in a hurry? Ignore EDCT/delay program of the day and blast off VFR, then try to pick up in the air. I've never tried it, but the flow memo makes it pretty explicit that...
19827906.jpg
 
I think there's 4 scenarios.
1. Getting your clearance on the ground when it's VMC
2. Getting clearance on the ground when it's IMC
3. Clearance in the air with VMC
4. Clearance in the air with IMC/MVMC


1. If you want your clearance on the ground, it's usually not a problem unless there's other traffic either on approaches for that airport or at a nearby airport. If I need it, I'll just say "hold for release" or I'll pick a time in the future that won't be a conflict for anyone else.

2. Basically the same with IMC. Usually less traffic flying around so I can get you out pretty quick however.

3. This one is easy. I'll give you a squawk code and then I'll give you the IFR clearance when there's no conflicting traffic.

4. The one with the most variables. Say you depart and you get trapped below the clouds. You call up asking for your clearance and I'll give you a code. If you say you departed the satellite airport I can just give you your clearance even if you're below my MVA. Otherwise I'll say "reaching (MVA) cleared as filed." I don't really care how you get to the MVA. If you say you can't climb due to clouds, I'll go into the "can you maintain your own terrain and obstacle clearance?" If you say you can, then I'll tell you to do it and then you're cleared as filed. This lets you fly into the clouds without an actual IFR clearance. Usually it's the local pilots doing this that know the area well.

If the airport has an ODP, I'm not going to tell you to fly it. I don't care if you do or not. You're going to report airborne with departure and they'll give a heading or just cleared on course. It's your call when to turn, but I'm protecting for the ODP until you start your turn.
 
Stinger said:
I think there's 4 scenarios.
4. The one with the most variables. Say you depart and you get trapped below the clouds. You call up asking for your clearance and I'll give you a code. If you say you departed the satellite airport I can just give you your clearance even if you're below my MVA. Otherwise I'll say "reaching (MVA) cleared as filed." I don't really care how you get to the MVA. If you say you can't climb due to clouds, I'll go into the "can you maintain your own terrain and obstacle clearance?" If you say you can, then I'll tell you to do it and then you're cleared as filed. This lets you fly into the clouds without an actual IFR clearance. Usually it's the local pilots doing this that know the area well.

If the airport has an ODP, I'm not going to tell you to fly it. I don't care if you do or not. You're going to report airborne with departure and they'll give a heading or just cleared on course. It's your call when to turn, but I'm protecting for the ODP until you start your turn.
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We were talking from a legal and/or safety standpoint. We know you're not the air police.
 
Stinger said:
As pilots are you actually supposed to fly the entire procedure?
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Until told otherwise by ATC.
I fly out of uncontrolled fields in somewhat mountainous terrain often. The ODP is how I reach an altitude where I can reach someone on the radio, and get to an en-route safe altitude. Sometimes the ODP is long enough, that I'll climb into radar coverage before coming close to completing it and ATC usually gives direct from that point.
 
A couple things here from reading through the thread...

1. ATC will NOT give you terrain clearance even if they do give you a clearance departing a field. For example: If you file direct, and in the clearance they say "cleared as filed", you dont have to use the ODP (for part 91), but there is NO terrain separation.

2. If you file Direct, and get the clearance "cleared as filed", then you may use the ODP and it will be protected airspace for you (Part 135 and 121 are required to use the ODP when IFR).

3. When there is no ODP, DP, or SID, (and there are many airports that dont have them), the Instrument flying handbook states that you fly runway heading to 400 AGL, or the end of the runway (whatever is last) then proceed to first filed waypoint.

4. ATC will not usually give a clearance in class G airspace. Usually the clearance is something like "upon reaching controlled airspace, cleared to xxx AF etc".

5. Except when necessary for takeoffs and landings, its not legal to fly in class G airspace below minimum flight altitudes (1000 feet, or 2000 feet mountainous). Yes, you dont need a clearance (cant get one) in class G airspace,but you must obey all IFR rules. Chances of meeting these requirements are slim in class G airspace from my experience.


I was once flying VFR with mountains surrounding me. Weather was getting to the point that I needed an IFR, so I asked ATC for a pop-up. Well they couldnt get me one until I was 12000 feet because I was blow the MEA. The problem was that I coudnt get up to that altitude without going in the clouds.
Finally figured out that I could land at an airport that happened to be right under me, I picked up an IFR, did the ODP. After comfortably cruising on top, ATC came on and said "I see what you did there, very clever and sneaky".
 
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