PC-12 Shutdown in Flight

moxiepilot said:
As mentioned, yes there is a air start assist procedure of the PT6.
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Show me in the Pilatus PC-12 Series 9, Series 10, or the NG PIM where there is an airstart procedure without the starter. Airstart with the starter is EP 3.5

moxiepilot said:
I'm going to call you out. I don't usually do this often, but with having over 900 hours on a PT6, your posts just don't jive with me. I think you're pulling your info off the internets and posting here to try to seem educated. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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You're going to call me out? Are you some internet tough guy? Should I call you out, too? Is that how this works?

Show me where my posts don't jive with you.

You're wrong, and I don't have to correct you. You've made an accusation, and you are free to back it up.

moxiepilot said:
I think most pilots would agree, that they would rather re-light the fire than worry about draining the bat.
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I just returned form Simcom Orlando a week ago. I know, I'm just making that up so I can sound educated on the internets, but if you've been through PC-12 training with them (and not just calling people out while having no specific aircraft experience), you will know that the EP as written by Pilatus is the way they run the senario in the sim.

After reading ackeight's post, it got me to thinking last night. First off, I will admit that I hadn't thought of performing an airstart without the starter, because as I pointed out in the Pilatus PC-12 the Airstart checklist is listed with the starter only.

But if you go back and reread his post, you will see that his argument is that attempting an airstart without the starter may start the engine and save electricity, so clearly draining the batt(s) is a concern. I think that his post is constructive, has got me thinking, and I will call my fictional Simcom instructor to pose this idea to him. I am certainly not above learning something new.

moxiepilot said:
It's a classic case of a practical scenario vs. textbook scenario.
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So the EP's written in the PIM are a "textbook scenario"? The only evidence of a shutdown & restart in flight is the video taken in Stans. They have the checklist out & follow it as written, in a very practical scenario.



moxiepilot said:
I'm with acknight here. I'd do an air start assist before a bat start. IMHO it's an easy procedure and you don't loose much altitude to keep 120 kts.
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And I may as well, his post has got me thinking. But before I change what I would do (follow the manufacturer written/FAA approved/sim training), I'm going to research this more.
 
moxiepilot said:
As mentioned, yes there is a air start assist procedure of the PT6



I'm going to call you out. I don't usually do this often, but with having over 900 hours on a PT6, your posts just don't jive with me. I think you're pulling your info off the internets and posting here to try to seem educated. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I think most pilots would agree, that they would rather re-light the fire than worry about draining the bat. It's a classic case of a practical scenario vs. textbook scenario.
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So if its IFR, and you can't get the engine relit, how do you expect to shoot an approach with no battery power?

I have about 1000 hours in the PC-12, and I know Stonefly, and he is correct. One attempt only at a restart.
 
Mr. Pilatus does say one batt assisted airstart; Mr. Pilatus does not list a non-bat airstart EP(I would try it if i was IMC). Just remember to flip the ignitors and pumps on since you are not using the starter and it will not trigger the auto igniters and pumps(duh, but in an emergency someone might forget). It's pointless to try 2 battery restarts. If I was in cruise and it died and I had VFR below me I wouldn't restart till I was vfr depending on ceilings. There are a lot of situations and a few right ways to do it, but there are a lot of wrong ways to do it. If it keeps you alive you did it right:beer:

On a side note, and the old Airnet guys can confirm or deny this, but I believe(70% sure) we did a non-bat airstart on the caravans???????
 
trafficinsight said:
just thinking out loud here but... has anyone here ever had an engine problem in a turbine that was able to restart it?

aircraft engines aren't the type to die for no reason really....
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Not from personal experience, but in my last aircraft (T-45 Goshawk), I only heard of one flame-out that didn't eventually result in a successful airstart, and that was due to poor pilot technique IIRC. Granted most of our forced airstarts were the result of locked in compressor stalls (unfortunate side effect of high alpha rough maneuvering in that aircraft), and not some sort of actual engine damage, but nonetheless, they had a pretty good airstart record.......unfortunately the good old Rolls-Royce had a pretty dismal record in bird ingestion events (normally resulting in an ejection and class A damage)
 
///AMG said:
Not from personal experience, but in my last aircraft (T-45 Goshawk), I only heard of one flame-out that didn't eventually result in a successful airstart, and that was due to poor pilot technique IIRC. Granted most of our forced airstarts were the result of locked in compressor stalls (unfortunate side effect of high alpha rough maneuvering in that aircraft), and not some sort of actual engine damage, but nonetheless, they had a pretty good airstart record.......unfortunately the good old Rolls-Royce had a pretty dismal record in bird ingestion events (normally resulting in an ejection and class A damage)
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Speaking of the T45 I believe this is a video one taking a bird and the pilots ejecting. The video says F-16 but I believe it is wrong. But for the life of me, I can't make out what the aircraft is saying? Sound like T6 n out.

[YT]zN_Zl64OQEw[/YT]
 
Bandit_Driver said:
Speaking of the T45 I believe this is a video one taking a bird and the pilots ejecting. The video says F-16 but I believe it is wrong. But for the life of me, I can't make out what the aircraft is saying? Sound like T6 n out.

[YT]zN_Zl64OQEw[/YT]
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I think the bitching betty is saying T6NL. The video is of a BAE Hawk (airframe that the T-45 was based on), IIRC it was a Canadian jet. We didn't have an auditory warning system like that in the Goshawk, but I think it's basically warning them about a turbine overtemp. They used basically the same engine as us, and it really had a habit of eating itself alive upon ingesting even the smallest of birds. There is a video on the net of a similar mishap that took place several years ago in Meridian, where the IP was actually able to sidestep to a the parallel runway and put it down safely after basically losing the engine to a bird in the pattern. Great airmanship, and IIRC the IP was a SERGRAD (basically a recently winged pilot who was retained as an instructor for a short tour of duty after winging). I lost track of how many huge turkey vultures I had to aggressively dodge both in and around the pattern in a little over a year of flying there. Strangely enough, my one actual birdstrike was on the road out on det in El Centro, and I certainly was holding my breath for a few anxious seconds before we realized that the bird hadn't gone down the intake.
 
Stonefly said:
You're going to call me out?
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Yeah, I'll do that occasionally when what some one posts doesn't coincide with personal experience and knowledge. Don't get all huffy, it happens. And just because I think you're wrong doesn't make it so.

Are you some internet tough guy? Should I call you out, too? Is that how this works?
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Yeah, that's how it works. :sarcasm:

Show me where my posts don't jive with you.
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Perhaps it was your writing style I didn't pick up on, but you were saying things weren't possible to do that I as well as others have done. See below...
After reading ackeight's post, it got me to thinking last night. First off, I will admit that I hadn't thought of performing an airstart without the starter, because as I pointed out in the Pilatus PC-12 the Airstart checklist is listed with the starter only.
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This was my point. Just because you hasn't thought of something doesn't mean everyone else is wrong.
So the EP's written in the PIM are a "textbook scenario"?
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Not what I was trying to say here. Your answers seemed too textbook without showing any real world application knowledge. Again it's just the way I read your posts.

If you really want to take this conversation further, PM me so we can take our conversation out of the thread topic.
 
Having flown with a shut down pt6 in the 1900, I'll say that an air restart wouldn't exactly be difficult. At 150 kts, we held close to 8%nh, will start it.

Curious, but in the pc12, what are your memory items for engine out?
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
Having flown with a shut down pt6 in the 1900, I'll say that an air restart wouldn't exactly be difficult. At 150 kts, we held close to 8%nh, will start it.

Curious, but in the pc12, what are your memory items for engine out?
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There isn't much, the airplane does all the necessary load shedding on its own, so its really pitch for 84 knots, and starting panicking. There is also an MOR, which is a manual override for the fuel control unit. If the FCU fails, you can use the MOR to manually introduce fuel to the engine.

About the "buy a king air" quip, more people have been killed after King Air engine failures than PC-12 engine failures.
 
Stonefly said:
Going back to this post, if you don't have batt power left to energize the starter, then you don't have power for the igniters.

In a King Air, you've got that second motor out there with a generator that's making electricity.
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This isn't true, the igniters don't use much current. You could have not enough bat power to get N1 up but enough to run the igniters. Wouldn't you? Well, maybe not. I guess it depends... on some aircraft you get below a certain amount of volts and everything dies.
 
Jimmy_Norton said:
About the "buy a king air" quip, more people have been killed after King Air engine failures than PC-12 engine failures.
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I'd be interested to see what the engine failed/ fatal accident ratio is for both... King airs fly a lot more each year, simply because there are 1000's out there.

I'm supprised that you don't have something like pumps/ ignitors on with power interruption, as that's really all there is to do with an air restart. Esp. If the plane loadsheds automatically
 
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