Pay 2 Fly program

moxiepilot said:
People feeling offended is going to happen every now and then, and I'm sure when we meet you'll realize I'm not that bad of a guy either. But it does not change my perceptions (and others), right or wrong, that the previous reputation of GIA is something that is not easily shaken from Silver.
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Oh! heck no! I'm going to hold it against you that you called me a douchebag :D

You get down to Memphis and I'll buy the first round.

moxiepilot said:
I should add @ctab5060X and @DPApilot that I am sorry if you are offended. But you cannot change my perception of this part of the industry. The OP asked about P2P programs, of which GIA is a good example as to what becomes of the pilots and company. Because Silver bought the assets and rebranded after the BK, it is linked to GIA. Just like when pilots cross picket lines, people remember things for a long time that can negatively affect an image.
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I'm going to try and say this as nice as possible...

People that maintain a flawed perception are a huge part of the problem in this industry. I know Silver is forever linked to GIA. Saw the effects (both good and bad) first hand. But as far as Silver being associated with a Pay 2 Fly program....


LET


IT


GO


While GIA was synonymous with the Pay 2 Fly program with their academy, Silver has never had a pay for job program. While you can't truly rebrand overnight, they are trying very, very hard to change their image for the good, and holding the current airline accountable for things that have long perished and was the product of management who are long gone does nothing to help them in their endeavor. A lot has changed in Fort Lauderdale over the last several years.





Maurus said:
You may want to reword this :)
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That is what I get for typing on the phone over breakfast :)
 
BobDDuck said:
Umm... That's not how it actually works. Normally a contractor holds the proper authorizations for doing something a company relies on the fact that those authorizations are actually issued in good faith. ValuJet certainly had their share of safety issues (and plenty of scabs) but the blame for 592 was pretty much all on SabreTech.

(And yes, I know the NTSB said that ValuJet should have provided better supervision of SabreTech in their final report)
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If I remember correctly, one of the links in the accident chain was a choice of words. Sabre Tech hadn't planned on shipping the generators anywhere on an airplane. The generators had been improperly secured (because of lack of caps, of which is not limited to companies like Sabre Tech) and tagged with words "expired" on many of the generators, which was intended to mean they were past their usability date. The boxes of these generators sat at Sabre Tech for a long time (I would believe that the original mechanics did not mean to send them anywhere quite yet, but they were probably forgotten in the fog of business). When the hangar was being organized of clutter, the boxes were discovered and after reading the tags, the individuals in charge decided to send them to ValueJet, as they were the owners. They must have not known exactly how these things looked when used, because they simply read the description of expired and decided "empty" also described the generators. They used the word "empty" when preparing the boxes to be COMATed. "Empty" and "Expired" mean 2 entirely different things and unfortunately, that meant they successfully loaded a bunch of lethally dangerous boxes of oxygen generators and bubble wrap into a cargo compartment. There were quite a few small mistakes that turned into a huge one, but in my opinion, nobody acted criminally, nor intended to cut corners just to get the job done. They simply did not have the supply and know how for each step of the process and that led to a horrific accident. I see these types of mistakes made all the time, just not all at the same time.
 
falconvalley said:
If I remember correctly, one of the links in the accident chain was a choice of words. Sabre Tech hadn't planned on shipping the generators anywhere on an airplane. The generators had been improperly secured (because of lack of caps, of which is not limited to companies like Sabre Tech) and tagged with words "expired" on many of the generators, which was intended to mean they were past their usability date. The boxes of these generators sat at Sabre Tech for a long time (I would believe that the original mechanics did not mean to send them anywhere quite yet, but they were probably forgotten in the fog of business). When the hangar was being organized of clutter, the boxes were discovered and after reading the tags, the individuals in charge decided to send them to ValueJet, as they were the owners. They must have not known exactly how these things looked when used, because they simply read the description of expired and decided "empty" also described the generators. They used the word "empty" when preparing the boxes to be COMATed. "Empty" and "Expired" mean 2 entirely different things and unfortunately, that meant they successfully loaded a bunch of lethally dangerous boxes of oxygen generators and bubble wrap into a cargo compartment. There were quite a few small mistakes that turned into a huge one, but in my opinion, nobody acted criminally, nor intended to cut corners just to get the job done. They simply did not have the supply and know how for each step of the process and that led to a horrific accident. I see these types of mistakes made all the time, just not all at the same time.
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But, but, but, you didn't mention that the captain was a scab!

On a serious note, God rest their souls...
 
Ok, I mentioned the scab thing, in all seriousness because I didn't know until recently. I am in no way insinuating that crash had anything to do with her being a scab. At the end of the day, just like with most accidents, it never should have happened. It was a series of mistakes that came together in the worst possible way. There certainly was no negligence on value jets part. It was just a chain full of links as always.
 
This is old news...And, the airlines are loaded with guys that paid-to-play in the late 80s early 90s. I still have some old Air Inc rags with COMAIR for 8K "Come fly our state-of-the-art EMB-120 Brasilia". Two of the biggest tools I have ever flown with both did pay for job at CAT (727 FE program).
 
BE19Pilot said:
This is old news...And, the airlines are loaded with guys that paid-to-play in the late 80s early 90s. I still have some old Air Inc rags with COMAIR for 8K "Come fly our state-of-the-art EMB-120 Brasilia". Two of the biggest tools I have ever flown with both did pay for job at CAT (727 FE program).
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With new airplane smell and everything!
 
BE19Pilot said:
This is old news...And, the airlines are loaded with guys that paid-to-play in the late 80s early 90s. I still have some old Air Inc rags with COMAIR for 8K "Come fly our state-of-the-art EMB-120 Brasilia". Two of the biggest tools I have ever flown with both did pay for job at CAT (727 FE program).
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wow, and here I thought GIA (along with GTA and captain-paying 'offer') was the very first !

I'm looking for more details about that, maybe you could enlighten me.
I wrote a piece here:
http://www.cockpitseeker.com/2014/p1-faa-pilots-p2f/
so I could complete it.

'Funny' coincidence, I heard mentions here of Capt. Kubeck but none of Thomas L. Cooper who also crossed the picket line at Eastern in '89 (who I consider to be the father of P2F schemes... until I saw your post @BE19Pilot )

Anyway, on related news, I'd like to share this with you guys:
https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/p2f_must_stop/
We're doing some progress as to raise awareness in Europe and might have a shot at doing something good for the industry...
Thanks in advance for your insights on all this :)
 
Pay for training schemes were very common in the '90s. Comair, ASA, Express One, etc. Cooper was hardly revolutionary. The only thing he really added to it was the ab initio component after he opened the flight school, allowing you to go from student pilot to BE-1900 FO in a matter of months.

BTW, your article isn't quite accurate. Cooper was never chief pilot at GIA, certainly not after he sold the company.
 
Pilotdude3407 said:
Ok, I mentioned the scab thing, in all seriousness because I didn't know until recently. I am in no way insinuating that crash had anything to do with her being a scab. At the end of the day, just like with most accidents, it never should have happened. It was a series of mistakes that came together in the worst possible way. There certainly was no negligence on value jets part. It was just a chain full of links as always.
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DPApilot said:
Because she crossed the picket line at Eastern in'89, thus making her a scab.
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Too, the way her name was dragged through the mud with some real sickening comments by people I read after that accident, was pretty much a disgrace. Both regarding her past as well as how that just had to be a factor in the crash itself, as well as being "glad she died...got what she deserved" types of comments. Kicking someone after they're dead isn't right.
 
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ATN_Pilot said:
Pay for training schemes were very common in the '90s. Comair, ASA, Express One, etc.
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I'm having a hard time getting the info with proper references on that. The 'etc' part sounds like you may have a somewhat refined idea on that. Care to elaborate? ;)

ATN_Pilot said:
BTW, your article isn't quite accurate. Cooper was never chief pilot at GIA, certainly not after he sold the company.
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I'll make sure to correct that, wikipedia can display some blatant errors obviously... 'didn't figure I would finally meet folks that know better :) (no sarc intended)
 
This goes back about 20 years to a little company called Chicago Express Airlines. At the time they flew Jetstreams out of Midway. They had a deal with Flight Safety where you pay for your initial training, and then fly for them as a first officer. When you upgraded (typically right at 1500 hours) the company covered the training cost.

I remember this one pilot who did the program at very low time (300-ish hours). Two years later she was flying for United. Say what you about such programs, but it worked for her.
 
Phil Schuyler said:
I remember this one pilot who did the program at very low time (300-ish hours). Two years later she was flying for United. Say what you about such programs, but it worked for her.
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It was a very different time. Hiring at the majors was very different. The commuters of that day were extremely small in comparison to today and had no need to compete for pilots since they had more than enough to choose from. There are many other reasons why this was occurring in the past and is no longer a viable course of action. GIA was just dumb since people were getting hired at 250-600 hours anyway at all the other regionals. Their system was seriously a 100% rip off and didn't help anyone get ahead. All the GIA people ended up starting back at the bottom of a seniority list behind people that spent something like $25k less on their training.
 
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Maurus said:
It was a very different time. Hiring at the majors was very different. The commuters of that day were extremely small in comparison to today and had no need to compete for pilots since they had more than enough to choose from. There are many other reasons why this was occurring in the past and is no longer a viable course of action. GIA was just dumb since people were getting hired at 250-600 hours anyway at all the other regionals. Their system was seriously a 100% rip off and didn't help anyone get ahead. All the GIA people ended up starting back at the bottom of a seniority list behind people that spent something like $25k less on their training.
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That's a good point. Back then, pilots were competing for regional airline jobs. Today regional airline jobs are competing for pilots.
 
MikeD said:
Too, the way her name was dragged through the mud with some real sickening comments by people I read after that accident, was pretty much a disgrace. Both regarding her past as well as how that just had to be a factor in the crash itself, as well as being "glad she died...got what she deserved" types of comments. Kicking someone after they're dead isn't right.
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Nobody deserves to die in an airplane.
 
Maurus said:
It was a very different time. Hiring at the majors was very different. The commuters of that day were extremely small in comparison to today and had no need to compete for pilots since they had more than enough to choose from. There are many other reasons why this was occurring in the past and is no longer a viable course of action. GIA was just dumb since people were getting hired at 250-600 hours anyway at all the other regionals. Their system was seriously a 100% rip off and didn't help anyone get ahead. All the GIA people ended up starting back at the bottom of a seniority list behind people that spent something like $25k less on their training.
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Your frame of reference is apparently pretty limited, so your information is incorrect. I'm guessing you're only familiar with things post-9/11, because back in the '90s, even the late '90s, nobody got hired at a regional with less than 1,200 hours. The 500 hour wonders were a post-9/11 phenomenon that resulted from incredibly fast RJ feeder growth. So, while I don't condone it (even though I was stupid enough to do it), GIA did help a lot of people to get ahead much more quickly. The typical GIA pilot pre-9/11 got hired full time after completing his 250 hours, upgraded as soon as he hit 1,500 hours total time, and was interviewing at the legacies before he hit 3,000 hours total time. Pre-9/11, I would fly with captains with 2,500 hours total time who were trying to decide between their offers from United and American.
 
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