Partial Panel Approaches and NDB approaches...

Y

youngflyer

Well-Known Member
Just curious if you had some tips on these two approaches? I am having some trouble with both of these. Everything else seems to be fine.
Tim
 
youngflyer said:
Just curious if you had some tips on these two approaches? I am having some trouble with both of these. Everything else seems to be fine.
Tim
Click to expand...

Partial panel is difficult to talk to without knowing exactly what it is that your instructor is taking away from you and exactly what he is leaving you with. It could be different depending on what systems are in the airplane you are using, and how they are wired. I have done a lot of primary training (all military) and only limited flying in GA airplanes.... So I'll let someone else speak to this half of your question, except to say that partial panel approaches are pretty much always difficult. They force you to break your habit patterns, your eyes have to go to different instruments to get information than you are used to, and your options of approach type may be limited.

As for NDB approaches, one technique that I always heard was "Push the head, pull the tail." I'll see if I can explain, but you'll have to visualize along with me or perhaps draw the instrument. For a point of reference, I'm thinking of an RMI or HSI setup as I explain this... basically a rotating compass card with the heading at the top and a needle on top of that which points to the station.

Say for example you are on an NDB approach with an inbound course of 360 (North) and the approach is set up with a procedure turn, 360 inbound course to the NDB (FAF), and then continues on with a 360 outbound from the NDB for 5 miles to the runway (probably using timing to identify the missed). That will be our initial setup, and we'll start out as though we are on the intermediate portion of the approach, with our procedure turn or other maneuvering complete, on final, and several miles to go until the NDB (which is also the FAF).

We would like to see the head of the needle pointing to 360, which tells us that we are on the 360 inbound to the NDB. Instead, we look down and see it is on 355. That means we are right of course. The "Push the head" portion of the technique above is referring to the lubber line or heading marker and the "HEAD" of the NDB arrow. We are going to use the heading marker or lubber line to push the head of the arrow towards 360. For example, by turning to a 350 heading. This will cause the needle to move closer to and eventually PAST 360 (assuming no wind). The other memory pneumonic that I've heard people use is "The head always falls," referring to the fact that the head of a bearing pointer (VOR, NDB, TACAN, etc.) will always move away from the top of the case.

OK, so we've made our correction back to course, and now we are over the NDB. It swings erratically for a second or two as we go through the "cone of confusion" and then the tail of the needle comes up towards the top of the case. If we're perfectly on course, the TAIL of the needle now sits atop 360, and we are still on a 360 course, only now we are moving away from the NAVAID. A second or two later, suppose we get off course again, and now the tail reads 003. We would like it to read 360 to stay on course, so we are going to "pull the tail" which is the opposite of "push the head." Basically, if we put a heading like 355 under the lubber line, we can think of the lubber as "pulling the tail" to 360. Or the other pneumonic "the tail rises."

If these don't make sense I would encourage drawing them out (including the heading marker/lubber line), and that may help.

Push the head, pull the tail

OR

Heads Fall, Tails Rise-- They amount to the same thing. Hope that helps.
 
Flying NDB approaches over and over in MS flight sim with winds from every conceivable direction got me over that little learning hurdle.
 
These are one of the things that flying in MSFS CAN actually help you with. It helps hone the scan.

For partial panel, trim is your friend. Also, for turns, I teach using a compass turn for longer turns (say the procedure turn inbound) and then timed turns for heading corrections. Roll in 1-2-3 roll out should give you about 10° of heading change and you won't get confused by the compass swinging back and forth as much. Finally, your orientation with navaids has to be good enough that you are free to concentrate on flying the airplane.

For NDBs, remember to turn towards the head of the needle whether you are going toward the NDB or away.
 
Use timed turns more than compass turns. My students always want to fly headings based off the compass and in turbulence that just gets to be a swinging mess. Think about how many degrees you need to turn and time it. Adjust those headings when the compass evens out.
 
Up here compass turns don't really work, so you have to do the timed turn deal for any real accuracy. Last time I did any serious partial panel was when I was doing my instrument rating, and under the hood come checkride/recurrent time. The only advice I can give is think things through.

Turn towards the head of the needle (don't know if someone's already said that) and remember that the needle always points at the station with the NDB. I flew a bunch of NDB approaches at ACE, and remembered one thing pretty well, don't spend too much time in your scan focused on the NDB, you can't fixate on it as much as you could with an ILS or a VOR approach, make small corrections, and fly the airplane. It'll all come together after some practice.
 
Partial panel, as has been said here, really depends on what you have and what is failed. Some more details might help with that.

For NDBs, they are super simple but made hard with too many weird terms IMO. What finally made it click for me was when my CFII told me to move it, in my head, over the DG. He said, "superimpose the NDB on top of the DG and make your adjustments from there." From that I made it all work without any further description.

Prior to that I had a different CFII tell me probably 10 different little things to remember about how to fly them and it never worked, I just couldn't picture it. That CFI also had me go on a site where you could use an NDB and a little plane flew around on a map. Maybe someone here has a link to that. That helped me with my outside orientation but it did nothing for my inability to fly an NDB hold.

Try imagining the NDB needle over the DG though and see if that helps you. Of course if you have an RMI and are still having trouble then I am unsure how to help.
 
1 common problem I routinely see in PP is not keeping the wings level. The student will have a minor amount of bank, not correct, and then end up making huge changes in bank, chasing the needle. Just keep scanning and interpreting.
 
shdw said:
Prior to that I had a different CFII tell me probably 10 different little things to remember about how to fly them and it never worked, I just couldn't picture it. That CFI also had me go on a site where you could use an NDB and a little plane flew around on a map. Maybe someone here has a link to that.
Click to expand...

Tim's air navigation simulator: http://www.visi.com/~mim/nav/

When flying the needles, I continually ask myself: "Where am I? Where do I want to be?" Once I have the answers to those questions, I can then determine what corrections, if any, to make.
 
mojo6911 said:
1 common problem I routinely see in PP is not keeping the wings level. The student will have a minor amount of bank, not correct, and then end up making huge changes in bank, chasing the needle. Just keep scanning and interpreting.
Click to expand...
Thanks everyone! This is a major problem I have. I guess I just need to speed up my scan rate and not get pre-occupied with other things.
 
If you have the option do your partial panel approach with the NDB, believe it or not, I find NDB approaches to be easier with partial panel than full panel. Had a couple of my students get hit with the partial panel NDB approach to finish a check ride so it should be practiced anyway.
 
The best trick I learned while flying Partial Panal VOR tracking (from a JC Instructor :) is once your on course, you can keep the VOR needle centered WITHOUT LOOKING AT YOUR COMPASS. Just make small heading changes using your turn coordinator and watching the VOR needle changes and rate of changes.
 
youngflyer said:
These tips help for sure! I flew today and did much, much better on both of these approaches! Thanks guys.
Click to expand...

Mind saying what specifically worked for you? Help us teachers out by letting us know which tips helped it click for you in particular. Thanks.
 
Well, mainly the superimposing the needle over the DG on the NDB approach and also, this simulator: http://www.luizmonteiro.com/Learning_ADF_Sim.aspx
The partial panel approaches were helped by using short, timed turns. I was originally doing excessively large corrections and ended up continuously overshooting the inbound course on the partial panel... Thanks again!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top