Part 61 and New ATP Rule

[mshunter]

Guess you'll have to do it the old fashioned way.

 

[Sosee]

Essentially, expecting white collar type salary for blue collar work. I wonder what truck drivers would think.

Not meaning to go on the attack but...
Yea, well show me a truck with 150 lives on board completely dependent upon the ability of the driver to land it and then tell me all about how 20K per year should in anyway be a conversation starter.

 

[aviatorx43]

And how many blue collar workers spend over $50,000 on their training alone, in addition to 4-6 written tests and just as many practical tests??

 

[Vector]

Not meaning to go on the attack but...
Yea, well show me a truck with 150 lives on board completely dependent upon the ability of the driver to land it and then tell me all about how 20K per year should in anyway be a conversation starter.

Ability to land so just happens to be what you are actually paid to do. Aren't take-offs and landings in instrument weather part of your job? You are making the pilot out to be some guy that saves the poor passengers from their death. Seems to me that you are trying to equate level of responsibility to pay which unfortunately is not how pay in this society work; at least not for blue collar work. School bus drivers would make a fortune if it were true considering the fact that they carry our precious little lives.

There is obviously great pay disparity within the industry. Some compensations are just down right criminal while others are just fantastic which I think causes much angst.

 

[hook_dupin]

And how many blue collar workers spend over $50,000 on their training alone, in addition to 4-6 written tests and just as many practical tests??

The similarity is in industry structure. When was the last time you heard any airline passenger request a specific crew member be assigned to a flight? Trust me, if the airlines thought they could make a buck doing that, they would.

 

[Patrick]

@davo3434
FYI the pilots who are responsible for the the Colgan air crash went to 141 schools. Didn't make them better pilots. I would argue just the opposite.

Having done both, as well, I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[Sosee]

Ability to land so just happens to be what you are actually paid to do. Aren't take-offs and landings in instrument weather part of your job? You are making the pilot out to be some guy that saves the poor passengers from their death. Seems to me that you are trying to equate level of responsibility to pay which unfortunately is not how pay in this society work; at least not for blue collar work. School bus drivers would make a fortune if it were true considering the fact that they carry our precious little lives.

There is obviously great pay disparity within the industry. Some compensations are just down right criminal while others are just fantastic which I think causes much angst.

Yes there is a great disparity in wages in this country. Its supporting the erroneous attitude that pilots are "Blue Collar". The reality is that as a PIC, my decision making is far above that of the average blue collar worker. However that is besides the point for purposes of this discussion. The simple facts are that I am a highly trained aviation expert with just about as much time if not more at the controls of large aircraft on 135 Ops than most Masters Degree holding people probably spent both in the classroom or heck, even classroom plus studying. I am certain my employer does not consider me a "blue collar" truck driver when he sends me in his G450 across the globe to pick up his family and bring them back home.
I elected to utilize the word "land" and to do so without exclusion of any other aspects of a flight operation because its the simplest portion for folks to relate in my humble opinion.
Starting wages for all 121 pilots at both regionals and Majors need to be at a level that recognizes the level of expertise of the pilots. However if 20K is all the lives of the often hundreds of lives depending upon the pilots is too high a price to pay for the airlines, while the requirements to have such job continue to rise, then those same airlines should not be surprised when they start to need fewer logistical, accounting and other assorted support staff due to airplanes sitting idle for lack of qualified pilots at the controls. By the way....that is already happening.
Nothing I said above is false. Many out there don't like what I have said here and said previously, but that certainly does not subtract in the least from the validity of the fact that ATP pilots are drastically underpaid at the entry level.

 

[Vector]

Yes there is a great disparity in wages in this country. Its supporting the erroneous attitude that pilots are "Blue Collar". The reality is that as a PIC, my decision making is far above that of the average blue collar worker. However that is besides the point for purposes of this discussion. The simple facts are that I am a highly trained aviation expert with just about as much time if not more at the controls of large aircraft on 135 Ops than most Masters Degree holding people probably spent both in the classroom or heck, even classroom plus studying. I am certain my employer does not consider me a "blue collar" truck driver when he sends me in his G450 across the globe to pick up his family and bring them back home.
I elected to utilize the word "land" and to do so without exclusion of any other aspects of a flight operation because its the simplest portion for folks to relate in my humble opinion.
Starting wages for all 121 pilots at both regionals and Majors need to be at a level that recognizes the level of expertise of the pilots. However if 20K is all the lives of the often hundreds of lives depending upon the pilots is too high a price to pay for the airlines, while the requirements to have such job continue to rise, then those same airlines should not be surprised when they start to need fewer logistical, accounting and other assorted support staff due to airplanes sitting idle for lack of qualified pilots at the controls. By the way....that is already happening.
Nothing I said above is false. Many out there don't like what I have said here and said previously, but that certainly does not subtract in the least from the validity of the fact that ATP pilots are drastically underpaid at the entry level.

For some reason, the term "Blue Collar" always seems to rob some pilots the wrong way. You likely fall into that category.
Having multiple hours at the control, most of which may be in auto-pilot mode is not the same as time devoted into research. The education system is obviously perverted with the advent of on-line degrees but be rest assured that credible programs from brick and mortar schools still have the required rigors. This is an industry where instructing jobs require very low hours which also translate to minimal experience(based on your own assertion of time behind the controls). It definitely can't be that technical.

I assume this person you fly for has port folio manager, cooks, pilots, drivers, accountants, lawyers, maids and grounds men. There are two categories as I see it. As his pilot, which group do you fall into?

 

[Sosee]

For some reason, the term "Blue Collar" always seems to rob some pilots the wrong way. You likely fall into that category.
Having multiple hours at the control, most of which may be in auto-pilot mode is not the same as time devoted into research. The education system is obviously perverted with the advent of on-line degrees but be rest assured that credible programs from brick and mortar schools still have the required rigors. This is an industry where instructing jobs require very low hours which also translate to minimal experience(based on your own assertion of time behind the controls). It definitely can't be that technical.

I assume this person you fly for has port folio manager, cooks, pilots, drivers, accountants, lawyers, maids and grounds men. There are two categories as I see it. As his pilot, which group do you fall into?

"Blue Collar" rubs pilots the wrong way in the same manner that "Ambulance Chaser" rubs attorneys the wrong way or "Tax guy" rubs a CPA the wrong way.
Flying by autopilot is indeed the same as devoting time to research...unless of course you are one of those who blindly trust the autopilot. Personally I don't. It requires constant and consistently correct supervision of the entirety of the aircraft systems to be able to correctly supervise the system....and yes it is very technical if its being done correctly.

 

[Vector]

"Blue Collar" rubs pilots the wrong way in the same manner that "Ambulance Chaser" rubs attorneys the wrong way or "Tax guy" rubs a CPA the wrong way.
Flying by autopilot is indeed the same as devoting time to research....

It might rub you the wrong way but it-is-what-it-is. Flying is at best a highly skilled blue collar work but it nothing more than that. For the airline industry, this is where rubber meets the road. For other operations, you are a highly paid taxi driver. It is what it has always been.

To even compare research to flying with autopilot is funny and a little telling. Let me ask you this, after your flying period, what assumptions do you confirm or deny, what conclusions can you make? Flying with autopilot is system monitoring.

 

[Sosee]

I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I believe ATP level pilots are highly skilled and should be paid as such. I recognize that not everyone will agree. However it is my experience that those such as yourself who appear to be highly focused upon attaching labels to people, usually are doing so to either gain some sort of self perceived advantage or to account for some other shortcoming they believe they themselves have.
I will volunteer that my shortcoming was leaving law school instead of staying put and earning that degree. I wanted to fly despite the lack of decent pay comparatively.
Anyway, good luck with your aviation activities. I am sure calling pilots "Blue collar" will get you a long way with the pilots you will encounter if you seek employment as one.

 

[mshunter]

Yes there is a great disparity in wages in this country. Its supporting the erroneous attitude that pilots are "Blue Collar". The reality is that as a PIC, my decision making is far above that of the average blue collar worker. However that is besides the point for purposes of this discussion. The simple facts are that I am a highly trained aviation expert with just about as much time if not more at the controls of large aircraft on 135 Ops than most Masters Degree holding people probably spent both in the classroom or heck, even classroom plus studying. I am certain my employer does not consider me a "blue collar" truck driver when he sends me in his G450 across the globe to pick up his family and bring them back home.
I elected to utilize the word "land" and to do so without exclusion of any other aspects of a flight operation because its the simplest portion for folks to relate in my humble opinion.
Starting wages for all 121 pilots at both regionals and Majors need to be at a level that recognizes the level of expertise of the pilots. However if 20K is all the lives of the often hundreds of lives depending upon the pilots is too high a price to pay for the airlines, while the requirements to have such job continue to rise, then those same airlines should not be surprised when they start to need fewer logistical, accounting and other assorted support staff due to airplanes sitting idle for lack of qualified pilots at the controls. By the way....that is already happening.
Nothing I said above is false. Many out there don't like what I have said here and said previously, but that certainly does not subtract in the least from the validity of the fact that ATP pilots are drastically underpaid at the entry level.

You are nothing more than a heavy equipment operator. Don't kid yourself. That makes us all blue collar. Crane operators at the dock make a lot of money. They had to start on the dock. They didn't magically become white collar simply because of a promotion.

 

[Sosee]

You are nothing more than a heavy equipment operator. Don't kid yourself. That makes us all blue collar. Crane operators at the dock make a lot of money. They had to start on the dock. They didn't magically become white collar simply because of a promotion.

Crane operators at the docks belong to good unions which actually work to improve the wages of their membership. I started in aviation for fun after a decade as an attorney. I love it when people assume that flying planes is all I am qualified to do. How do you think I paid for my plane? It definitely wasn't working as a pilot.
I choose to fly a G450 part 91 not because it pays well. Rather I choose to do it because its fun. A lot more fun than taking depositions, filing motions and chasing ambulances. lol Currently I get my 650 daily rate four days per week. If I returned to law, I would make more in one day than I currently make in a week....but it would feel like I was selling my soul.
Anyway, its a shame to see other pilots willing to assign negative labels to themselves or sell their own skills short. I suppose its the way of things but it never will make one grain of sense to me. C'est la Vie.

 

[Pilotman83]

Just curious if anyone else is in the same position that I am in when it comes to the new ATP rule. Before I start my rant, I want to say I fully support the hour requirements and training that have gone into effect with the new ATP ruling last year.

The big problem that I have is that I had already passed my Private (October 2011), Instrument (March 2012), and Commercial (December 2013) check ride before the rule went into effect. I am also enrolled at Utah Valley University (UVU) as an online student since the Fall of 2011. Talking with the University they confirmed to me that anyone who attends UVU as an online student getting a aviation related degree and participates in a 141 flight school (does not have to be UVU flight school, can be any 141 flight school) will be allowed to get the restricted ATP. For me that is a huge inconvenience. I will be graduating this spring semester with a bachelor’s degree in Aviation, which meets the new requirements. The downside is that because I did not do any of my ratings 141 (not knowing it would make a difference) I do not apply to the flight requirement for the ATP. In my opinion there should be in place a type of grandfather rule for applicants who got ratings before the rule went into effect. I picked the 61 training because it was 20 minutes from my house and it was convenient and cheap. The 141 program was an hour away which knowing what I know now, I would have happily paid extra and driven the extra distance to do it 141.

I have scoured the web for any literature or response from the FAA on this matter and I can’t find anything. Just wondering if anyone else is in this situation that knows of some type of wavier or has gotten an answer from the FAA.
*I'm new to the forums and wasn't sure if this is the right spot.

I'm in the exact same position. I actually did all my training part 61 at a school that became approved for the 1000 hours R-ATP under part 141. I am now instructing at that school, teaching instrument and commercial students under part 141. I contacted the local FSDO to see if I could get a waiver of some sorts because I have taken my written and I am now teaching the syllabus and students who will qualify for the 1000 hours R-ATP. They basically told me there was nothing I could do and its not even worth trying.

I'm not giving up, I've been researching a lot, and haven't been able to find much. But, everyone is right. 500 hours comes pretty quick as a CFI

 

[BarbieDreamPilot]

Whether or not we're "blue collar" is irrelevant (But FWIW jet jockeys operate some of the most advanced machinery on the earth in changing weather conditions responsible for 100s of human lives, not to mention that those collars are generally white). It's supply and demand, cost vs benefit. I would argue the majority of prospective pilots these days see the costs as far outweighing the benefits. Costs include expensive training, poor QOL for years, and now 1500 hour minimums. On the whole, in order to attract greater rates of pilots into the industry, the benefits will (hopefully) have to improve such that they outweigh the costs in order to boost supply.

As a result of these and other factors (2008, etc.) the number of pilot certificates issued has steadily declined. It takes years for someone to go from a crisp commercial pilot certificate to ATP. The number of pilot retirements is crazy. So we have a supply of pilots decreasing with momentum; it cannot be reversed in a day. Or even a year. Might take 5 or 10 years for a solution to get cooked up. Demand seems to be fairly constant. The blue collar thing is irrelevant. So even if we don't see things improving right away, go ahead and get those 1500, let the airlines lobby the FAA to reduce 1500 hour rule and just be glad it exists to reduce supply; consider your training and initial experience in frugal living an investment to set yourself up for faster upgrades and better $$$ in the future.

I think it's a pretty good time to jump on that seniority list.

Edit: And yeah, to address OP's concerns if you get a job at a halfway busy school those 500 extra hours are not going to be a big deal.

 

[Flyboy57]

I'm in the exact same position. I actually did all my training part 61 at a school that became approved for the 1000 hours R-ATP under part 141. I am now instructing at that school, teaching instrument and commercial students under part 141. I contacted the local FSDO to see if I could get a waiver of some sorts because I have taken my written and I am now teaching the syllabus and students who will qualify for the 1000 hours R-ATP. They basically told me there was nothing I could do and its not even worth trying.

I'm not giving up, I've been researching a lot, and haven't been able to find much. But, everyone is right. 500 hours comes pretty quick as a CFI

Yes it can. I picked up 500 hours during one calendar year teaching part time. Some of those hours included maintenance test flights and some x-c ferrying airplanes for folks. Being around the airport a lot opens lots of doors via contacts you make.

 

[ScorpionStinger]

Ability to land so just happens to be what you are actually paid to do. Aren't take-offs and landings in instrument weather part of your job? You are making the pilot out to be some guy that saves the poor passengers from their death. Seems to me that you are trying to equate level of responsibility to pay which unfortunately is not how pay in this society work; at least not for blue collar work. School bus drivers would make a fortune if it were true considering the fact that they carry our precious little lives.

There is obviously great pay disparity within the industry. Some compensations are just down right criminal while others are just fantastic which I think causes much angst.

But the school bus driver makes more than pilots carrying/flying the old, young, new born, as well as the unborn.

So that argument is still null... CDL-P holding School Bus Drivers earns a compensation generally equvilent or more than a regional pilot.

I know for a fact CDL-A truck drivers earn nearly 2X as much as regional airline pilot (1-3 yr FO).

Avg starting pay for new Class A CDL driver is $40K.

Costs only like $2,000 - 3,000 to get your CDL-A... Plus there is a shortage of CDL drivers. Can easily find a starting pay of $50K or more if you do research, or relocate.

 

[ScorpionStinger]

Businesses charge customers accordingly for the cost of doing business.

For some weird reason pilots, unions, major carriers & regional carriers, LCC heavily compete against each other for market share and increased capacity. When it should be inceasing revenue through capacity control and competition.

I hope industry mergers continues! I believe our profession needs reduced competiton so that Airlines can charge passengers more.

Pre 1978 deregulation era had fewer carriers, and less competition (or shall i say managed competiton and capacity). Also Airline pilot career, income, and prestige were a whole lot better. There was less competiton.

 

[Vector]

But the school bus driver makes more than pilots carrying/flying the old, young, new born, as well as the unborn.

So that argument is still null... CDL-P holding School Bus Drivers earns a compensation generally equvilent or more than a regional pilot.

Don't know what school district you are in and how pay is in your locale but I don't know any school bus driver that makes anything fantastic. The ones I know don't even get paid between morning pick-up/drop off and afternoon pick-up/drop off. That is less than 8 hrs a day and unless they are making close to $28/hr can't even break $30K per year.

 

[WAtreefifekaybeck]

I'm in the exact same position. I actually did all my training part 61 at a school that became approved for the 1000 hours R-ATP under part 141. I am now instructing at that school, teaching instrument and commercial students under part 141. I contacted the local FSDO to see if I could get a waiver of some sorts because I have taken my written and I am now teaching the syllabus and students who will qualify for the 1000 hours R-ATP. They basically told me there was nothing I could do and its not even worth trying.

I'm not giving up, I've been researching a lot, and haven't been able to find much. But, everyone is right. 500 hours comes pretty quick as a CFI

I am also in the same boat. Did my private 61 then Decided to go to central washing university to do my other ratings through the flight program (141). I showed up with all my cross country flight time requirements met. They told me they could only use 1/4 of it......... So I decided to switch to part 61 and get the same training as my classmates and graduate taking the same classes. I saved about 20k in flight training and went elsewhere to do my CFI and multi saving even more money. So just because my logbook entries for the instrument and commercial rating don't say 141 next to it I miss out on the R ATP. But in the end it's not that big of a deal.

like what has been said above, get the CFI and get to work. It will make you a better pilot and the time builds quick.