Not meaning to go on the attack but...Essentially, expecting white collar type salary for blue collar work. I wonder what truck drivers would think.
Ability to land so just happens to be what you are actually paid to do. Aren't take-offs and landings in instrument weather part of your job? You are making the pilot out to be some guy that saves the poor passengers from their death. Seems to me that you are trying to equate level of responsibility to pay which unfortunately is not how pay in this society work; at least not for blue collar work. School bus drivers would make a fortune if it were true considering the fact that they carry our precious little lives.Not meaning to go on the attack but...
Yea, well show me a truck with 150 lives on board completely dependent upon the ability of the driver to land it and then tell me all about how 20K per year should in anyway be a conversation starter.
And how many blue collar workers spend over $50,000 on their training alone, in addition to 4-6 written tests and just as many practical tests??
Yes there is a great disparity in wages in this country. Its supporting the erroneous attitude that pilots are "Blue Collar". The reality is that as a PIC, my decision making is far above that of the average blue collar worker. However that is besides the point for purposes of this discussion. The simple facts are that I am a highly trained aviation expert with just about as much time if not more at the controls of large aircraft on 135 Ops than most Masters Degree holding people probably spent both in the classroom or heck, even classroom plus studying. I am certain my employer does not consider me a "blue collar" truck driver when he sends me in his G450 across the globe to pick up his family and bring them back home.Ability to land so just happens to be what you are actually paid to do. Aren't take-offs and landings in instrument weather part of your job? You are making the pilot out to be some guy that saves the poor passengers from their death. Seems to me that you are trying to equate level of responsibility to pay which unfortunately is not how pay in this society work; at least not for blue collar work. School bus drivers would make a fortune if it were true considering the fact that they carry our precious little lives.
There is obviously great pay disparity within the industry. Some compensations are just down right criminal while others are just fantastic which I think causes much angst.
Yes there is a great disparity in wages in this country. Its supporting the erroneous attitude that pilots are "Blue Collar". The reality is that as a PIC, my decision making is far above that of the average blue collar worker. However that is besides the point for purposes of this discussion. The simple facts are that I am a highly trained aviation expert with just about as much time if not more at the controls of large aircraft on 135 Ops than most Masters Degree holding people probably spent both in the classroom or heck, even classroom plus studying. I am certain my employer does not consider me a "blue collar" truck driver when he sends me in his G450 across the globe to pick up his family and bring them back home.
I elected to utilize the word "land" and to do so without exclusion of any other aspects of a flight operation because its the simplest portion for folks to relate in my humble opinion.
Starting wages for all 121 pilots at both regionals and Majors need to be at a level that recognizes the level of expertise of the pilots. However if 20K is all the lives of the often hundreds of lives depending upon the pilots is too high a price to pay for the airlines, while the requirements to have such job continue to rise, then those same airlines should not be surprised when they start to need fewer logistical, accounting and other assorted support staff due to airplanes sitting idle for lack of qualified pilots at the controls. By the way....that is already happening.
Nothing I said above is false. Many out there don't like what I have said here and said previously, but that certainly does not subtract in the least from the validity of the fact that ATP pilots are drastically underpaid at the entry level.
"Blue Collar" rubs pilots the wrong way in the same manner that "Ambulance Chaser" rubs attorneys the wrong way or "Tax guy" rubs a CPA the wrong way.For some reason, the term "Blue Collar" always seems to rob some pilots the wrong way. You likely fall into that category.
Having multiple hours at the control, most of which may be in auto-pilot mode is not the same as time devoted into research. The education system is obviously perverted with the advent of on-line degrees but be rest assured that credible programs from brick and mortar schools still have the required rigors. This is an industry where instructing jobs require very low hours which also translate to minimal experience(based on your own assertion of time behind the controls). It definitely can't be that technical.
I assume this person you fly for has port folio manager, cooks, pilots, drivers, accountants, lawyers, maids and grounds men. There are two categories as I see it. As his pilot, which group do you fall into?
It might rub you the wrong way but it-is-what-it-is. Flying is at best a highly skilled blue collar work but it nothing more than that. For the airline industry, this is where rubber meets the road. For other operations, you are a highly paid taxi driver. It is what it has always been."Blue Collar" rubs pilots the wrong way in the same manner that "Ambulance Chaser" rubs attorneys the wrong way or "Tax guy" rubs a CPA the wrong way.
Flying by autopilot is indeed the same as devoting time to research....
Yes there is a great disparity in wages in this country. Its supporting the erroneous attitude that pilots are "Blue Collar". The reality is that as a PIC, my decision making is far above that of the average blue collar worker. However that is besides the point for purposes of this discussion. The simple facts are that I am a highly trained aviation expert with just about as much time if not more at the controls of large aircraft on 135 Ops than most Masters Degree holding people probably spent both in the classroom or heck, even classroom plus studying. I am certain my employer does not consider me a "blue collar" truck driver when he sends me in his G450 across the globe to pick up his family and bring them back home.
I elected to utilize the word "land" and to do so without exclusion of any other aspects of a flight operation because its the simplest portion for folks to relate in my humble opinion.
Starting wages for all 121 pilots at both regionals and Majors need to be at a level that recognizes the level of expertise of the pilots. However if 20K is all the lives of the often hundreds of lives depending upon the pilots is too high a price to pay for the airlines, while the requirements to have such job continue to rise, then those same airlines should not be surprised when they start to need fewer logistical, accounting and other assorted support staff due to airplanes sitting idle for lack of qualified pilots at the controls. By the way....that is already happening.
Nothing I said above is false. Many out there don't like what I have said here and said previously, but that certainly does not subtract in the least from the validity of the fact that ATP pilots are drastically underpaid at the entry level.
You are nothing more than a heavy equipment operator. Don't kid yourself. That makes us all blue collar. Crane operators at the dock make a lot of money. They had to start on the dock. They didn't magically become white collar simply because of a promotion.
Just curious if anyone else is in the same position that I am in when it comes to the new ATP rule. Before I start my rant, I want to say I fully support the hour requirements and training that have gone into effect with the new ATP ruling last year.
The big problem that I have is that I had already passed my Private (October 2011), Instrument (March 2012), and Commercial (December 2013) check ride before the rule went into effect. I am also enrolled at Utah Valley University (UVU) as an online student since the Fall of 2011. Talking with the University they confirmed to me that anyone who attends UVU as an online student getting a aviation related degree and participates in a 141 flight school (does not have to be UVU flight school, can be any 141 flight school) will be allowed to get the restricted ATP. For me that is a huge inconvenience. I will be graduating this spring semester with a bachelor’s degree in Aviation, which meets the new requirements. The downside is that because I did not do any of my ratings 141 (not knowing it would make a difference) I do not apply to the flight requirement for the ATP. In my opinion there should be in place a type of grandfather rule for applicants who got ratings before the rule went into effect. I picked the 61 training because it was 20 minutes from my house and it was convenient and cheap. The 141 program was an hour away which knowing what I know now, I would have happily paid extra and driven the extra distance to do it 141.
I have scoured the web for any literature or response from the FAA on this matter and I can’t find anything. Just wondering if anyone else is in this situation that knows of some type of wavier or has gotten an answer from the FAA.
*I'm new to the forums and wasn't sure if this is the right spot.
I'm in the exact same position. I actually did all my training part 61 at a school that became approved for the 1000 hours R-ATP under part 141. I am now instructing at that school, teaching instrument and commercial students under part 141. I contacted the local FSDO to see if I could get a waiver of some sorts because I have taken my written and I am now teaching the syllabus and students who will qualify for the 1000 hours R-ATP. They basically told me there was nothing I could do and its not even worth trying.
I'm not giving up, I've been researching a lot, and haven't been able to find much. But, everyone is right. 500 hours comes pretty quick as a CFI
Ability to land so just happens to be what you are actually paid to do. Aren't take-offs and landings in instrument weather part of your job? You are making the pilot out to be some guy that saves the poor passengers from their death. Seems to me that you are trying to equate level of responsibility to pay which unfortunately is not how pay in this society work; at least not for blue collar work. School bus drivers would make a fortune if it were true considering the fact that they carry our precious little lives.
There is obviously great pay disparity within the industry. Some compensations are just down right criminal while others are just fantastic which I think causes much angst.
Don't know what school district you are in and how pay is in your locale but I don't know any school bus driver that makes anything fantastic. The ones I know don't even get paid between morning pick-up/drop off and afternoon pick-up/drop off. That is less than 8 hrs a day and unless they are making close to $28/hr can't even break $30K per year.But the school bus driver makes more than pilots carrying/flying the old, young, new born, as well as the unborn.
So that argument is still null... CDL-P holding School Bus Drivers earns a compensation generally equvilent or more than a regional pilot.
I'm in the exact same position. I actually did all my training part 61 at a school that became approved for the 1000 hours R-ATP under part 141. I am now instructing at that school, teaching instrument and commercial students under part 141. I contacted the local FSDO to see if I could get a waiver of some sorts because I have taken my written and I am now teaching the syllabus and students who will qualify for the 1000 hours R-ATP. They basically told me there was nothing I could do and its not even worth trying.
I'm not giving up, I've been researching a lot, and haven't been able to find much. But, everyone is right. 500 hours comes pretty quick as a CFI