Part 141 syllabus

skidz

skidz

Well-Known Member
I have a question about my training. I'm currently doing part 141 instrument by Gleim syllabus and when I finish this I will go into commercial. My question is: Since in part 141 you pretty much go by the syllabus, does that mean that I have to fly all the lessons even if I have enough hours and experience? I guess my question is can I cut it short?
The thing is I will have something like 170-180 hours when I finish instrument and basically I don't need another 105 or so hours that the course consists of. Will I be able to get commercial as soon as I get the hours requirement or I'm gonna have to stick to the exact letter of the syllabus? What's your experience on this?
 
skidz said:
I will have something like 170-180 hours when I finish instrument and basically I don't need another 105 or so hours that the course consists of.
Click to expand...

Do you mean 105 or so hours that the commercial course consists of?

If so, then yes. Each 141 course consists of specific hours that must be completed in each course.

A commercial 141 course is 120 hours. No matter if you have 500 hours before, you must do 120 hours in the course. The school Chief Instructor can credit you with a maximum of 25% of the required time from previous part 61 flight training, which is 30 hours, but that is his call based on a test, and the kind of experience. Even if you have the lazy 8 nailed, you still have to do at least 90 hours.

Most people just go part 61 commercial in those cases.
 
"What's your experience on this?"

My experience is the 61 is much more flexible, and that's why I like it.
 
I instruct in a part 141 school. The FAA has deemed that you can not skip lessons even if you have the time requirements. I had this problem when I took the 141 commercial course and well all you have to do is just do the lessons and make short as possible. But the commercial course TCO's have specified checklist of manuevers on each lesson. I wish you could short cut the commercial course but if you do you will get one of two results. either a false 8710 form and the FAA will most likely pull your certificate for falsification of records. The other option is that you will not be allowed to take the checkride and well you will still have to go and do the lessons. remember you can not get the checkride till you complete the 141 course. Hope this helps.

-Farva
 
Sounds to me like you will come out much cheaper by timesharing for 50 hours in a 172 or 152 with someone else at around $50 pr/hr (total $2500). Then, that will leave you with 20 or so hours to practice commercial maneuvers (another $2500) and room for a 5 hour CMEL add-on course (around $1700).

Total for this would cost you around $7000. Now, run that cost agains't the 141 program...even with VA benefits. You cannot timeshare (safety pilot) in a 141 program.

Here's to ya! ;)
 
Chewie von Nubbins said:
Sounds to me like you will come out much cheaper by timesharing for 50 hours in a 172 or 152 with someone else at around $50 pr/hr (total $2500). Then, that will leave you with 20 or so hours to practice commercial maneuvers (another $2500) and room for a 5 hour CMEL add-on course (around $1700).

Total for this would cost you around $7000. Now, run that cost agains't the 141 program...even with VA benefits. You cannot timeshare (safety pilot) in a 141 program.

Here's to ya! ;)
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:

Part 61 sounds like the way to go for you as far as your commercial is concerned. You will already have most of the total time requirement. I'm almost positive it will be cheaper. I know the part 141 commercial program has a lot of dual time factored in there, which will cost a lot of $$.
 
It depends on the TCO. 141 commercial course is not as expensive as can be. For one fact depends on how you are getting the aircraft in question. Wet or Dry and associated costs. As a CFI and CFII I would look at what would work best for you. I spent on the commerical course via the 141 route at UND about 8,000 bucks. But with that I got a Commercial Single engine and Multiengine land plus a instrument rating. So for 8g's aint to bad. and a good majority is dual recieved but I also got about 25 hours of solo XC. Now the part 61 route is great and there is more freedom but let me tell you there are some general rules with part 61 commercial flying that you should really look into. First off you need to have 250 PIC xc hours after your private pilot training. If you have that and also including a xc that is straight line distance of 250nm away from your starting point. Then go part 61 because really that most of the work to do right there. As far as manuevers you will need to have a instructor with you a majority of the time because well you have to be on the ball. being that you are becoming a commercial pilot you are expected to be at a higher level. So dont expect to short cut to much. If you can do steep turns to chandelles and steep sprials then down to about 800 ft AGL into a eights on pylon with out getting out of commercial PTS standards then you are good to go man. 141 will however if they are structured right will be able to help you master the manuvers and improve aircraft control. part 141 and part 61 is all a matter of time and your schedule. personally you gonna spend money no matter which direction you go. If you were up in the ND area i would help ya out but I dont think you are. Good luck man but I am telling ya part 61 is not so great unless you have the money and the time. 1414 will help you get it faster and at much lower required times for the rating.

-Farva
 
I got about 140 hours right now. Some 80 or so is x-country. After I get my IR I should be close to 180 or so. With part 141 it would take another 120 hours for commercial which would maybe not work for me because that would put me close to 300 hours. Part 61 would probably work better in this case. However, I am wondering what do you all think is a reasonable amount of hours that I might need to fly to get the commercial done given the hours I already have?? I'm just trying to sort of make an assesment to see if the extra hours required are really needed or not.
 
Look it skidz i understand what you are saying but 140 hours doesnt mean much if tht is your total time. for part 61 you need 250 hours after private pilot training. where as 141 has it a lower time line but is much more structured training. Part 61 may work but you will spend a ton more money if you dont follow the regs correctly you could waste more money that you are trying to save. here is the part 61 requirement. and I will also give you the 141 requirement. but remember all times are after your private pilot license. All training to aqquire the private will not count toward a commercial cert.
Part 61
61.129
a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:
(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.
(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least—
(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and
(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least—
(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a single-engine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(v) 3 hours in a single-engine airplane in preparation for the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.
(4) 10 hours of solo flight in a single-engine airplane on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part, which includes at least—
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

Part 141
141.101 Apendix D
4. Flight training. (a) Each approved course must include at least the following flight training, as provided in this section and section No. 5 of this appendix, on the approved areas of operation listed in paragraph (d) of this section that are appropriate to the aircraft category and class rating for which the course applies:
(1) 120 hours of training if the course is for an airplane or powered-lift rating.
(2) 155 hours of training if the course is for an airship rating.
(3) 115 hours of training if the course is for a rotocraft rating.
(4) 6 hours of training if the course is for a glider rating.
(5) 10 hours of training and 8 training flights if the course is for a balloon rating.
(b) Each approved course must include at least the following flight training:
(1) For an airplane single-engine course: 55 hours of flight training from a certificated flight instructor on the approved areas of operation listed in paragraph (d)(1) of this section that includes at least—
(i) 5 hours of instrument training in a single-engine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in a single-engine airplane that has retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is turbine-powered;
(iii) One cross-country flight in a single-engine airplane of at least a 2-hour duration, a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure, and occurring in day VFR conditions;
(iv) One cross-country flight in a single-engine airplane of at least a 2-hour duration, a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure, and occurring in night VFR conditions; and
(v) 3 hours in a single-engine airplane in preparation for the practical test within 60 days preceding the date of the test.

These are the regs. If you go part 61 yes it is more flexiable but just remember you better stay on top of your training because if you dont you will not succeed on your first attempt on your checkride.
 
here are the solo requirments. thought i had pasted them on. here they are for 141.

5. Solo training. Each approved course must include at least the following solo flight training:
(a) For an airplane single-engine course: 10 hours of solo flight training in a single-engine airplane on the approved areas of operation in paragraph (d)(1) of section No. 4 of this appendix that includes at least—
(1) One cross-country flight, if the training is being performed in the State of Hawaii, with landings at a minimum of three points, and one of the segments consisting of a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles;
(2) One cross-country flight, if the training is being performed in a State other than Hawaii, with landings at a minimum of three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles; and
(3) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight with a traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
 
Farva said:
for part 61 you need 250 hours after private pilot training.
Click to expand...

FAR says you need 250 hours as a pilot of an aircraft, it does not say anything else, so I think you might be wrong here. :confused:
Why would none of the private hours count?
 
Farva said:
61.129
a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:
(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.
(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least—
(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and
(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least—
(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a single-engine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(v) 3 hours in a single-engine airplane in preparation for the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.
(4) 10 hours of solo flight in a single-engine airplane on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part, which includes at least—
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
Click to expand...


I already have all the bold stuff. :)
 
well sorry. I right now have 8 students and of those 4 are commercial applicants. Anyway if you feel part 61 is the route that is fine but remember you still have to get the commercial manuevers down and well your instructor has to sign you off for the practical and I will tell you that even though you may have 180 hours you still have to get another 70 hours and of that all of the other requirements upon that you do not have bold.If you are in a part 141 school as of right now, All of that time will count toward you commercial. because if you stay 141 it works out. I did my instrument course before i did my single engine commercial course and all of the times i have aqquired for my instrument course counted toward my commercial single engine course. So really take you current time and apply that to the 141 reg I have given you and see how much time you need. because no course is going to have 130 hours for a single engine commercial.

-Farva
 
as far as the 250 hours are concerned i was looking at the instrument rating flight experience as well as the commercial flying experience so I got a little dyslexic and gave you bad information on that. you are correct that you can use you private times toward a commercial rating. But as a flight instructor I will tell you that unless you prepare for every flight lesson and study hard part 61 commercial ops can be difficult because sometimes you may not get the easiest DP. (FAA Inspector)
hope this helps:)

-Farva
 
Farva said:
So really take you current time and apply that to the 141 reg I have given you and see how much time you need. because no course is going to have 130 hours for a single engine commercial.

-Farva
Click to expand...

See, this is exactly what confuses the hell out of me....if you got to stick to the syllabus that means you have to stick to that 120 hours requirement which is outlined in the syllabus. So how do you take your current time and follow the syllabus at the same time?? :confused:
 
Farva said:
Part 141
141.101 Apendix D
4. Flight training. (a) Each approved course must include at least the following flight training, as provided in this section and section No. 5 of this appendix, on the approved areas of operation listed in paragraph (d) of this section that are appropriate to the aircraft category and class rating for which the course applies:
(1) 120 hours of training if the course is for an airplane or powered-lift rating.
(2) 155 hours of training if the course is for an airship rating.
(3) 115 hours of training if the course is for a rotocraft rating.
(4) 6 hours of training if the course is for a glider rating.
(5) 10 hours of training and 8 training flights if the course is for a balloon rating.
(b) Each approved course must include at least the following flight training:
(1) For an airplane single-engine course: 55 hours of flight training from a certificated flight instructor on the approved areas of operation listed in paragraph (d)(1) of this section that includes at least—
(i) 5 hours of instrument training in a single-engine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in a single-engine airplane that has retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is turbine-powered;
(iii) One cross-country flight in a single-engine airplane of at least a 2-hour duration, a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure, and occurring in day VFR conditions;
(iv) One cross-country flight in a single-engine airplane of at least a 2-hour duration, a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure, and occurring in night VFR conditions; and
(v) 3 hours in a single-engine airplane in preparation for the practical test within 60 days preceding the date of the test.
Click to expand...

Well, according to this I see that I only need 55 dual and the rest of it I can apply my current hours, am I right?
 
You already have 140 hours and will have around 180 before you start training for the Comm??? Go 61. You can get everything knocked out quickly. Don't buy into the 141 hype. You would spend a ton more than necessary (IMO).

Farva, I believe you did a time building program also, which went along with your Comm SE & ME. You did all that time building for 8K? And your inst? Why doesn't everybody go to UND then...I mean, 8K for Comm, SE & ME, and Inst tickets. 7-8K for a private, I'm assuming. So, you paid 16K for all your ratings? Fantastic!!!

Personally, I think you're forgetting about some of your flight courses, but anyways...for Skidz I believe he'd be better suited with a 61 course.

Do your research and talk to schools around you and see what they can do for you. Good luck!
 
In answer to your question i havent for gotten any of my flight courses. I paid 10gs for the flight instructor course since i was flying it part 61. my CFII was 141 and only cost me around 5 grand. The commercial course consisting of commercial single engine and multi engine with a instrument rating ran around into the higher 8 grand.The only way to do that is to always come prepared and a sheer amount of luck. As far as the 141 hype i agree in that dont do a 141 school just because they advertise it to be the best. Rather go out and do whats best for you. I am just giving my opinion on the issue. As far as UND is concern it is a good program and well it gets the job done is a reasonable amount of time. I am not gonna say that we are any better than anyone else because my commercial cert is no different than the guys who went part 61. As far as i know our 141 cert is the same as everybody elses so i dont see how it is a problem but i do agree with you and say for skidz go out and do research and find what is best for you. sorry if i have upset anyone with my opinion and comment.

-Farva
 
Farva said:
In answer to your question i havent for gotten any of my flight courses. I paid 10gs for the flight instructor course since i was flying it part 61. my CFII was 141 and only cost me around 5 grand. The commercial course consisting of commercial single engine and multi engine with a instrument rating ran around into the higher 8 grand.The only way to do that is to always come prepared and a sheer amount of luck. As far as the 141 hype i agree in that dont do a 141 school just because they advertise it to be the best. Rather go out and do whats best for you. I am just giving my opinion on the issue. As far as UND is concern it is a good program and well it gets the job done is a reasonable amount of time. I am not gonna say that we are any better than anyone else because my commercial cert is no different than the guys who went part 61. As far as i know our 141 cert is the same as everybody elses so i dont see how it is a problem but i do agree with you and say for skidz go out and do research and find what is best for you. sorry if i have upset anyone with my opinion and comment.

-Farva
Click to expand...
Oh, trust me...no problem. I'm just trying to understand your statement that all 3 ratings only cost 8K. So, you started with your PVT, right?:D 7Kish, 60TT at most...now you went straight to Comm SE/ME, and Inst ratings for 8K and got up to 190TTish right? So, you got 130TT and 3 ratings for 8K. Fantastic deal...you see where I'm getting at? There were no other flight courses between PVT and Comms? Did you have other hours from somewhere?

For the record, I don't remember the exact price, but it was somewhere around 5-6K for my CFII/MEI (at ATP JAX). My CFI was piecemeal but ended up costing around 6-7K. All Part 61.

For my initial ratings (all at Riddle a long time ago), PVT was one course, then we did a time building (fun course). Then it was an instrument course, Comm SE, and then finally a Comm ME course. I don't remember prices of the courses, but it was much more than I should have paid.

My point in all this is I think there's something missing from your 8K course price. 141 *typically* is more expensive since you are with an instructor more, but you have to do less hours total, so it pretty much washes out IMO. The main advantage of 141 is it's more structured. The main disadvantage of 141 is it's more structured (no flexibility).

If you have a lot of hours, typically, 141 is the less beneficial way IMO. Once again I will say, and I know you agree, that everybody needs to do their research and figure out which is best for them.
 
This is based on my experience and what I've researched. I'm in a position similar to you, 150 hours but I have my instrument. Immediately after my private, I went in to a 141 school dual enrolled, instrument and commercial. After a while I crunched the numbers and 141 commercial didn't make sense. I was getting free flight time outside of the course. The plan now is to build time, then go to an accelerated commercial course, part 61. You wouldn't have to even build much time.
Short version:
141 Commercial course is too much time, too much dual, and too expensive unless you're foreign or using GI bill. Do it 61.
61/141 Instrument course is a toss up, just depends on the school.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top