Pan Am vs. Westwind

I've seen good and bad 61 and 141 schools, good and bad academies and good and bad FBOs.

One of the things I disliked about Riddle was the flight training. Too many inbred CFIs that, while they can teach you what's in the PTS by rote, really don't have a helluva lot more experience than the fledgling studs they're teaching.

It's be nice to have experienced guys as CFIs, but the problems is finding some. There's a few, but not enough.

I got my Private back in 1987-88 from Sawyer when they were at KPHX. IP was an old hand corporate guy and was good. The new IPs were ok.

The other week, I crossed through PHX airspace to enter VR-239 MTR; and right about 2 miles into the route, there's a damn Piper Cherokee or Archer with a blue bottom and white top practicing what appears to be ground reference maneuvers right on the VR routing. Darn plane blended in with the terrain and I didn't pick him up until we passed his 8 o'clock by @ 1/2 mile and co-altitude. I'd like to think the crew had a little more SA than that. Later that same flight, passed over a 172 flying along the same route from point C to point E. I hope that wasn't a training flight.


MD
 
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When there's nothing good on TV, just read the Pan Am threads. This cracks me up. I have decided to stay out of the arguments, it is pointless and a waste of time. Let the cry-babies cry.

I start CFI ground today, look for my new thread later tonight!!

The Turk.

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I see you squeezed an insult in there, so I guess you haven't really decided to stay out of the thread.
 
Dak and Mav, that’s the negative propaganda you’re pitching. Pan Am is sending more than 3 or 4 onward in the time it takes to mint 25 new CFI’s. Just out of curiosity, how many CFI’s have moved on from your FBO to regional airlines in the last few months?

Yo Mike D, is that the water guy from Dr. Strangelove? Don’t you know your military training routes over Lake Pleasant are interfering with our practice area? Seriously though, we are getting pushed out further with traffic and communities in the NW practice area. I don’t think it’s SA as much as collision avoidance with other non-radar GA trainers. My apologies if this isn’t the case, but I have heard to use caution around these and not avoid them altogether. Is this contradicting what you expect from us out there?
 
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Yo Mike D, is that the water guy from Dr. Strangelove? Don’t you know your military training routes over Lake Pleasant are interfering with our practice area? Seriously though, we are getting pushed out further with traffic and communities in the NW practice area. I don’t think it’s SA as much as collision avoidance with other non-radar GA trainers. My apologies if this isn’t the case, but I have heard to use caution around these and not avoid them altogether. Is this contradicting what you expect from us out there?


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Yeah, that's General Ripper, Commander, 843rd Bomb Wing, Burpleson AFB. hehehe

IMO, practicing airwork in a MOA or along a known MTR, anything where training is going on and full attention can't be maintained to the outside, is potential trouble waiting to happen.

Military Training Routes are usually never in "military-only areas" such as Restricted Areas, etc. As military pilots, we train like we fight; and if that means a 450 knot low-level ingress to a target, then that's what we do. There's a reason that MTRs in the USA are depicted on Sectional Aeronautical Charts and the US AP-1/B chart; that's so civilian pilots can plan around them, and either avoid them, or be able to be VERY heads-up if they must fly near them. When I say "must fly near them", I'm referring to some MTRs which come within (due to terrain) some small private, uncontrolled airstrips, such as those near ranches, etc. In these instances, civilians need to go in/out of these fields, and knowing the status of a particular MTR near you is important.

It's legal to fly through/in MOAs and along MTRs, but that's not the question. As you know, in VMC, it's everyone's responsibility to see and avoid.

But here's a good example of the problem: In the A-10, I've got no radar for my low-levels, my only separation ability comes from the Mk.1 eyeball. Keep in mind, though, that I have a multitude of cockpit tasks going on while tooling along at 300 AGL/360 KIAS. First, eyeing terrain to make sure I'm doing my job of pilotage correctly (ie- matching terrain features with what's on my map to make sure I'm going the right way), avoiding hitting the ground/power lines/near rocks/far rocks, keeping track of my timing per leg [if I'm going for a specific TOT, or Time Over Target], keeping track of my other aircraft in my formation, insuring my weapons panel is set correctly [such as setup change from air-air to air-ground], going over and over in my mind what the attack plan is [formation, role, weapon, timing, attack axis], and being ready to flex to a different plan if the first one gets screwed up [such as unplanned threats pop-up], and maintaining overall SA over the operation; all while moving at 300 AGL/360 KIAS; and all this in addition to trying to see and avoid. Truth be told, we really expect (hope) that civilian pilots won't be in our path because they HAVE done the necessary pre-planning for their flights. Even in radar equipped fighters, the pilot isn't sitting with his head in his scope while tooling along at low level, so he may not notice civilian hits on his scope. In addition, some radars are even programmed to negate hits below certain airspeeds, in order to reduce the scope clutter. Also, at the speeds mentioned, I'm moving @6 miles/minute (A-10), or 8-9 miles/minute (other fighters); a Cessna 152 would probable be visibly detectable for only a couple of seconds before I flashed past it. Point? Everyone practice the best see-and-avoid they can; but also civilian pilots should be aware of where Military Training Routes are and, preferably, avoid them. Military pilots should know what their route structure is, and remain within it.

PHX airspace is getting more and more crowded, that's part of the reason for the closure of Williams AFB. And I fully understand that airspace is getting smaller and smaller; hell, most of the state of Arizona is Special Use Airspace of some sort, just look at the PHX sectional. Hopefully, even as this happens, GA and military can still co-exist without conflict.

MD

ps- I think I'm going to re-post this in the general section for all to see and consider.
 
General Ripper, heh heh, classic.

MikeD, thanks for the great post – that was very interesting. One other thing to consider: MTR’s are depicted on the sectionals yes, but in GA we have no way to positively identify them with our nav equipment. I will definitely be more conscious of flying to avoid them through pilotage. Like you said, at your speeds a Cessna 152 would probable be visibly detectable for only a couple of seconds before you flashed past it.
 
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General Ripper, heh heh, classic.

MikeD, thanks for the great post – that was very interesting. One other thing to consider: MTR’s are depicted on the sectionals yes, but in GA we have no way to positively identify them with our nav equipment. I will definitely be more conscious of flying to avoid them through pilotage. Like you said, at your speeds a Cessna 152 would probable be visibly detectable for only a couple of seconds before you flashed past it.


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Correct. MTRs are designed to train in high speed, low level navigation using landmarks, or pilotage, and DR. That's why there's no NAVAIDS associated with them. That's also why you'll also notice that every turn point is a prominent land mark of some type.

MD
 
i'm not at all trying to pass out negative propoganda, in fact i'm pretty offended you even suggest that. i just told facts from when i was attending the school. when i was there the number of newly minted CFI's compared to the new and present student body didn't add up to anything beneficial to me. it really has nothing to do with Panam itself or its teaching or policies, it has to do with the marketplace today. i really have no need or want to bash Panam. i had many more pressing reasons why i left, and the CFI vs. student population was just a small part of it. so don't get upset or accuse me of propoganda because i decided to give a peak of what was going on in my head and at the school at the time i left.
 
I just had recent visits to both schools (Panam and Westwind) the past few weeks and pretty much found the academy route to be to stale for me. Very nice facilities and tight operations, maybe too tight. Never saw anyone laughing and really just enjoying themselves at Panam. At least those at Westwind looked like they were having fun. I was basically told by the recruiter at Panam that if I couldn't handle the structure and fit in there than I could never survive the airlines. No wonder they are on a tight schedule, they're pumping 175 students, 3 per instructor, through their program at the DVT campus alone. Ground school is all done in a large classroom lecture setting, just feels to impersonal. I don't believe that paying a couple hundred bucks for uniforms and using specialized "airline style" checklists to get myself more acclimated to the regional environment will make or break my career. I'm not saying the ACE program and all that is fluff, just seems unneccessary to me for the cost. I don't feel like paying a minimum $65grand (plus living expenses for 18months) for air conditioning and a few rides in the CRJ sim. The other thing is that they say all the other schools (let's say most part61) out there are decent places to get your ratings, but thats it. They claimed they are the only routes putting people in jobs - most currently some instructors to CHQ - yet ATP has put roughly just as many at the same regional recently - and with 100+ instructors from both campuses at Panam, shouldn't they be placing more than just a dozen pilots? It just doesn't seem worth it to me. Any comments???
 
one comment. They have 175 students and 58.3 instructors there? Either thats a line or fpr is hurting. If this is true, why cant some fpr grads ship to dvt to teach? Any comments from dvt cfi's?
 
To quote him..."We have roughly 300 students between the two campuses and never allow more than 3 per instructor"....not sure on the exact numbers but that just seems crowded to me.
 
Yeah, that's about right. I don't have any hard numbers, but I'd estimate that DVT has 160-200 students and 55-60 instructors.
 
I beg to differ on the part where Pan Am Students get in trouble or kicked out for renting other aircraft. Not only can you rent Pan Am planes for what they call fun-flights, but you can also rent planes from other FBO's. They just want you to let them know just in case your killed, injured, or in trouble during that flight, the only thing you can remotely get kicked out for is if you get one of your ratings at another school while attending Pan Am. I got my High Performance Rating at West Wind and it was fine with them all I had to do is notify the Chief Pilot because Pan Am does not offer that rating. I also fly vintage aircraft for the CAF at Falcon Field once and awhile and I'm still here!! Pan Am doesnt have a problem with it either.
 
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