Pan Am vs. Westwind

Well DrBenny I appreciate your comments, unfortunately they go in one ear and right out the other for mav. Mav, I'll leave you to have your opinions, wrong or right. I'm not about to stoop to your level to make my point. It continues to amaze me that eventhough DrBenny aggrees as I'm sure others do to, you still believe any other way than your way is wrong. Pretty immature. Grow up.
 
I know it sounds like I'm being arrogant, but seriously, why should anyone have to pay tens of thousands of extra for flight training at an academy? Can anyone answer that for me? Look at the prices the flight academies charge. We're talking about a lot of money here, not just nickels and dimes.
So go ahead, give me a reason why someone should spend an extra 50,000 dollars or just revert back to calling me arrogant like always.
 
Umm, extra $50,000??? What a load of crap. You guys quote around $35000 from zero to MEI. However, Saywer quotes FAA mins while Pan Am is a little more realistic. If I use Saywer's rates with the times that Pan Am recommends then your looking at more like $40,000. Ok, does Saywer's rates include tax? If not add another couple grand. So you'll pay a little more at Pan Am. However, you'll have around 100 hours of multi, and a better paying, higher quality of life job then an FBO instructor. Also, Pan Am will help you find a job is you take the ACE program. So it's not like Pan Am students are being ripped off, they are paying a little more, but there are benefits.

BTW, you guys at Saywer should fix the errors on your website.
 
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Umm, extra $50,000??? What a load of crap. You guys quote around $35000 from zero to MEI. However, Saywer quotes FAA mins while Pan Am is a little more realistic. If I use Saywer's rates with the times that Pan Am recommends then your looking at more like $40,000. Ok, does Saywer's rates include tax? If not add another couple grand. So you'll pay a little more at Pan Am. However, you'll have around 100 hours of multi, and a better paying, higher quality of life job then an FBO instructor. Also, Pan Am will help you find a job is you take the ACE program. So it's not like Pan Am students are being ripped off, they are paying a little more, but there are benefits.

BTW, you guys at Saywer should fix the errors on your website.




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How much is Pan Am paying you Tired?

And at least we quote an accurate and honest amount on our website. 27,000 to 35,000 sounds accurate to me and it includes everything. Are you saying that Pan Am does that? Check the past posts in Pan Am jetcareers over the past year and see if that's true!

And by the way Tired, you say you've met me before? How come you won't tell me who you are and won't reveal yourself? Talk about honesty!

And how do you know how life is an instructor at an FBO is? I could go on with the rest of your post, but why waste much time on it? Remember, I'm the one speaking from experience. I've been at Pan Am and Sawyer. Have you ever been at Sawyer? Nope, you're just some idiot that feels brave behind a computer screen. Enough said.
 
And on one more note, this website is for helping people through flight training, and to speak honestly, I see NOTHING good with flight academies, and I've been taking a lot of heat for that viewpoint. That's fine if people argue with me but I'm speaking from experience. Remember, after ATA closed down, even Doug himself posted a warning on the website not to drop down 60,000 dollars upfront at any academy!

Anyway like I said, enough said. If this stupid bickering continues, Doug is going to have to get out the jetcareers bat, close the thread, and send us all to hell.
 
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How much is Pan Am paying you Tired?

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More then the average FBO instructor makes.

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And at least we quote an accurate and honest amount on our website. 27,000 to 35,000 sounds accurate to me and it includes everything.

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Oh please. (1) On your website it quotes 40 hours as the amount needed to obtain a PPL. Pan Am is a little more realisitc at 50 hours. (2) Under instrument training it says 40 hours in the airplane but only 20 dual. Do your students fly alone under the hood or something? (3) In the CFI course your students apparently are ready to go after only ten hours in a 172. Yet you need a complex aircraft for the CFI initial. (4) Ten hours for a commerical-multi-instrument add-on? Yeah, right. Pan Am will give you a more realisitic 20 hours to complete a multi add-on rating.

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And how do you know how life is an instructor at an FBO is? I could go on with the rest of your post, but why waste much time on it? Remember, I'm the one speaking from experience. I've been at Pan Am and Sawyer. Have you ever been at Sawyer? Nope, you're just some idiot that feels brave behind a computer screen. Enough said.

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Sure, I trained and worked at an FBO. I've haven't been to Sawyer since it moved out to Scottsdale, but tell me what am I missing by not going out there? What makes it any different from other FBOs I've seen?
 
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I know it sounds like I'm being arrogant, but seriously, why should anyone have to pay tens of thousands of extra for flight training at an academy? Can anyone answer that for me? Look at the prices the flight academies charge. We're talking about a lot of money here, not just nickels and dimes.
So go ahead, give me a reason why someone should spend an extra 50,000 dollars or just revert back to calling me arrogant like always.

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The main problem with your reasoning (as I have already pointed out) is that you see the price of a given program as the most important variable. Maybe cost is most important to you, but not to everyone.

Certainly if one can obtain the best training possible for the lowest price possible, that is ideal. This is not, however, reality. Allow me to give you another example. I did my undergraduate work at a university that gave me a full scholarship, and my masters and doctorate at an "academy"--in this case, a conservatory--which cost twice as much but which only gave me a half-tuition scholarship.

The university wasn't a famous one, but had a pretty good program; the conservatory has an international reputation. I entered my graduate studies with no loans, and left with, well, a lot of loans.

Know what? Yes, that's right--there was good and bad to both situations. How could this be possible, with that price differential? I can summarize it by saying that the two programs were very different, but worked wll for me in the different stages of my development.

I repeat: different strokes for different folks, even if it costs more.
 
Looks like your outnumbered mav. Take a hint, and give it up. I could have stayed and finished my training at an FBO but I liked the aspect of having a more structured program, which Pan Am offered. Was it worth the extra money? For me it was. Maybe you learn better in a different environment which may also be cheaper. I wish I could have the best of both worlds but I weighed the cost and it was worth it. I have never regretted my decision. I don't have a problem with FBO's and you shouldn't have a problem with academies. I just think it's unfair to refer to my school and place of employment as the "axis of evil".
 
We can argue about money all day, but the real bottom line is this: Pan Am CFI’s are walking out the door to regional airlines at a pretty impressive rate. What’s more, they are making it through the ground schools and flying the line as airline pilots. These are excellent pilots coming from a top quality flight academy. No matter how much you trash talk Pan Am, you cannot dispute these facts.
 
there still isn't a great enough turnover of instructors moving up to the regionals. its tough when you move 3 or 4 onward, but then mint 25 new CFI's to fit in those few spaces. it doesn't add up, but i really hope it starts to for the sake of my friends who are still down there right now.
 
Good point Dak, thanks for checking the propoganda. There are those of us who don't plug our schools, are always honest with our posts and try to give people the best advice possible from our experiences, although I can't say the same for everyone else on here.
 
Yeah I'm just lying left and right aren't I. Since you are now the expert on everything about flight training. Don't even try to tell me you know everything there is about academies and FBO's. I don't see you ripping on FSI and they cost as much as Pan Am. I think you are just pissed because you felt like you got screwed at Pan Am and now you have nothing better to do with your life than make sure everyone knows it. Give it up, move on, try something new. We're all pretty tired of your posts that continue to reak of immaturity.

Next you'll try to convince everyone that Cessnas are better than Pipers. Go ahead and try me.
 
Listen now and believe me later; Cessnas are better than Pipers because I said so! That sounds convincing enough to me.
 
E7B: "They are walking out the door at an impressive pace"....OR are they being kicked out still due to downsizing???? Sorry, just had to ask. Theres plenty of instructors there that went from salary to hourly due to the downsizing that aren't very happy (yes, I do still have some friends at PA!!!) It's just very unfortunate that the airline industry is still hurting so badly that these people can't move on and actually have to take what they can get from them. All I have to say in closing is that when they did downsize and chose to let me go and others (and who knows maybe some students feel this way) it was the best thing that could have ever happened to me. I couldn't even see how unhappy I was until I got out of there and everything started turning around. So forget the money, if you aren't happy or you aren't getting what you want, move on....maybe someone needs to give you a good shove but let them!!!! It will be worth it.
 
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. . . .So forget the money, if you aren't happy or you aren't getting what you want, move on. . . .

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This is yet another, very good and succinct way of saying cost is not the only factor.
 
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. . . .So forget the money, if you aren't happy or you aren't getting what you want, move on. . . .

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This is yet another, very good and succinct way of saying cost is not the only factor.

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All else aside wrong with the school, tens of thousands of dollars is a big factor! Especially when you become of CFI.
 
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. . . .So forget the money, if you aren't happy or you aren't getting what you want, move on. . . .

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This is yet another, very good and succinct way of saying cost is not the only factor.

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All else aside wrong with the school, tens of thousands of dollars is a big factor! Especially when you become of CFI.

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What you say is true, but it doesn't contradict my point.
 
When there's nothing good on TV, just read the Pan Am threads. This cracks me up. I have decided to stay out of the arguments, it is pointless and a waste of time. Let the cry-babies cry.

I start CFI ground today, look for my new thread later tonight!!

The Turk.
 
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All else aside wrong with the school, tens of thousands of dollars is a big factor! Especially when you become of CFI.

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I can't say I've been hurting for money. I get by supporting my family (granted I'm making very good money for a CFI now), so I don't really agree with you on that point.
 
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