Owning vs Renting

[ChasenSFO]

The places around me require you to carry not only hull coverage as a renter, but also liability coverage. After I got all of the coverage that they requried, it was half of what the full coverage for an owned airplane was!

Interesting. I thought schools out here were super anal(giggity), but from the things you've written about renting in your area, it seems WAY worse. Most schools I've flown at fully insured me on the airplane. One in Kentucky left insurance totally up to me, but you had the option to take the risk and fly without it. Another one out here had a highish deductible, but otherwise you were fully covered. Interesting what it's like in Georgia. Especially since out here there is so much terrain and the airspace is busy all over the place not just around one major airport. Go figure.

 

[wheelsup]

I soloed @ 25 hours ab initial in a new Mooney at MAPD 2nd Midland semester. After I left there were 2 gear ups and they went to 172's.

Well, you were at Midland. No gear ups there in all the years they operated in Farmington. They never had 172s. Just Bonanzas. Might say more about Midland than you think...

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Interesting. I thought schools out here were super anal(giggity), but from the things you've written about renting in your area, it seems WAY worse. Most schools I've flown at fully insured me on the airplane. One in Kentucky left insurance totally up to me, but you had the option to take the risk and fly without it. Another one out here had a highish deductible, but otherwise you were fully covered. Interesting what it's like in Georgia. Especially since out here there is so much terrain and the airspace is busy all over the place not just around one major airport. Go figure.

I think it's really just a result of not having any small "mom and pop" flight school around me. The only flight school left is a big "zero to hero" flight school that seems to care only about guys paying $60k to do all of their ratings. The guys who just want to rent seem to be more of a hassle to them than anything.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I think it's really just a result of not having any small "mom and pop" flight school around me. The only flight school left is a big "zero to hero" flight school that seems to care only about guys paying $60k to do all of their ratings. The guys who just want to rent seem to be more of a hassle to them than anything.

Unfortunately I found that to be to true as well in the NYC metro area in the NJ side. Three flight schools wouldn't even outright entertain me renting a Cessna (American Flyers, Century Air, and Nova)....... they outright do not allow rentals. They are all after the students and pilots getting their certificates/ratings. Like you said, renters almost seem like a hassle.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Interesting. I thought schools out here were super anal(giggity), but from the things you've written about renting in your area, it seems WAY worse. Most schools I've flown at fully insured me on the airplane. One in Kentucky left insurance totally up to me, but you had the option to take the risk and fly without it. Another one out here had a highish deductible, but otherwise you were fully covered. Interesting what it's like in Georgia. Especially since out here there is so much terrain and the airspace is busy all over the place not just around one major airport. Go figure.

One place near me requires 25,000 in aircraft hull coverage for Cherokee 140s! On their main webpage they are selling a Cherokee 140 with 21,000 total time and 2100 on the engine for $14,000. That entire aircraft isn't even worth 14 grand yet they want me to have enough insurance on the hull for 25k. Things like this make one scratch the head.

 

[texas_pilot]

Well, you were at Midland. No gear ups there in all the years they operated in Farmington. They never had 172s. Just Bonanzas. Might say more about Midland than you think...

While it started out a private venture, the incidents caused the school to take over.
Their best student soloed a M20S in 9 hours despite what you might think of them.

 

[Richman]

IMHO, Mom-n-Pop flight schools (the 20-30 plane outfit), along with the "FBO-as-a-provider-of-flight-training-or-rental-location", are pretty much a thing of the past.

Here's the deal. We all know that the only money to be made is in the margins. Many FBOs were aircraft dealers, and were required to maintain a certain number of aircraft as demonstrators, and thus already had a certain sunk cost, so it cost nothing to throw those airplanes on the flight line. When FBOs decided to get out of the aircraft sales/flight school business, all of the things that were done "at cost" became "profit centers" at the expense of whatever entity that picked up that business. Instead of free office space, someone had to pay it. Instead of essentially "free" services done by on-staff MX people, such as oil changes and 100 hour inspections, that now gets billed out at full retail. No more fuel at cost. That pretty much wiped out any profit at 1990 prices.

Other factors were the irrational insurance market after 9/11 (now 14 years in the past). Private insurance is still affordable, but commercial insurance is in orbit. The only way to do it is to keep it really small, or amortize the cost over a huge fleet, and to have a huge fleet, you need big money or deep pockets.

Changes in tax laws doomed the leaseback. Back in the 90's it wasn't uncommon to see a corporate/club operator have 30 airplanes, of all varieties, from 152s to 210s. Now if you find someplace that has three airplanes, that's a big deal. You just can't make any money at it, and your asset gets trashed.

Schools operate on such a slim margin... any changes in practically any of the operating parameters put them in the dirt.

I used to bite off on the whole product liability issue, but like health care, the issue is not the cost of the actual product, it's all the leeches that are sucking off the money flow. You'll have a very difficult time changing it because a LOT of people have cheese involved.

You don't think that syringe the nurse stabs you with actually costs $25, do you? There is a whole string of people taking a slice of that pie, and only a few are even peripherally related to the actual care of sick people.

Richman

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

If you aren't in the foreign or 0 to hero flight training market, there isn't enough demand to keep a mom and pop flight school going. The costs and dedication are too prohibitive for most people to pick it up as a hobby.

 

[Richman]

If you aren't in the foreign or 0 to hero flight training market, there isn't enough demand to keep a mom and pop flight school going. The costs and dedication are too prohibitive for most people to pick it up as a hobby.

While I hate to quote marketing conditions, failure to market flying correctly is certainly one of the reasons.

Money isn't an issue...many people pay a buttload of money to tennis pros, golf pros, personal trainers and what not. $90-100/hr and think nothing of it.

The problem is the "flying as a hobby" environment was never all that super deluxe to begin with. In the past, the old busted couch & shirt tails on the wall made of fake wood paneling in the shack attached to a hangar at least had a certain amount of quaint charm to it (if you could call it that), but at least you could drive up to the hangar and walk out to the flight line without passing through ominous layers of fencing with razor wire on the top.

These days, most places I've seen are in a hopelessly bland office in a strip mall, devoid of ANYTHING that speaks to the romance of flying (no, a 737 cockpit posted does not count), and you need to take a golf cart to get to the airplane while everyone gives you the stink eye. Causal interacting (AKA hangar rats) of customers is definitely NOT encouraged, and that eliminated a huge part of the social aspect which, consciously or unconsciously, is very important to people.

Granted...people are a little whiney these days, and getting into a un-air conditioned 152 probably looks a bit sad when they roll up in their Lexus. If there was one thing to change, that would be it, even if it was one of those ice cooler things in the back.

If I had my way, I'd have a fleet of Champs operating out of a Quonset hut on a grass strip, but hey, that's me. "Movie night at the hangar" would be a weekly event.

There is a way to blend the old with new, but there is an art to it...but judging how most pilots dress, that gene is definitely lacking in the pilot population at large.

Richman

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Where do you live? We don't have any of those problems with barbed wire and such down here except at the biggest airports. I drive my car out to my airplane, and dads are walking their kids around looking at the planes on the ramp unescorted. It's basically no different than it was 20 years ago.

 

[Richman]

Where do you live? We don't have any of those problems with barbed wire and such down here except at the biggest airports. I drive my car out to my airplane, and dads are walking their kids around looking at the planes on the ramp unescorted. It's basically no different than it was 20 years ago.

The TSA is waiting in the wings. Any place in a largish population center. Wait until your airport/county/city commission figures out how much free grant money they're losing out on for "security improvements".

My airport is in the middle of the swamp in an otherwise populous county. TALL fence, razor wire, and proximity card for gate entrance. They've just installed a larger fence, security cameras and new gates/readers. Word is the next "upgrade" will require finger print and other biometric data for entry. You wouldn't know the airport was there unless there was a sign.

I'm not a OWO nutter....no ominous black helicopters....this is just about handing out Federal money to the pigs at the trough and the appearance of "doing something".

Your airport is next...they just haven't gotten to you yet.

Richman

 

[jskibo]

Where do you live? We don't have any of those problems with barbed wire and such down here except at the biggest airports. I drive my car out to my airplane, and dads are walking their kids around looking at the planes on the ramp unescorted. It's basically no different than it was 20 years ago.

Yep:

Here's Todd with Pa, walking around the airport

 

[z987k]

We have public roads go through my airport. No fences. Very busy ga field.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

The TSA is waiting in the wings. Any place in a largish population center. Wait until your airport/county/city commission figures out how much free grant money they're losing out on for "security improvements".

My airport is in the middle of the swamp in an otherwise populous county. TALL fence, razor wire, and proximity card for gate entrance. They've just installed a larger fence, security cameras and new gates/readers. Word is the next "upgrade" will require finger print and other biometric data for entry. You wouldn't know the airport was there unless there was a sign.

I'm not a OWO nutter....no ominous black helicopters....this is just about handing out Federal money to the pigs at the trough and the appearance of "doing something".

Your airport is next...they just haven't gotten to you yet.

Richman

I'm not too worried.

 

[Shiftace]

Where do you live? We don't have any of those problems with barbed wire and such down here except at the biggest airports. I drive my car out to my airplane, and dads are walking their kids around looking at the planes on the ramp unescorted. It's basically no different than it was 20 years ago.

Pretty much same here, where I live in MN. No problem driving to the plane or anything of the sort. Most of the smaller airports are unattended anyway, for the most part.

 

[jskibo]

We have a prox card for the reader at the North gate for the club, drive right on though

 

[ChasenSFO]

I live in a pretty big population area and luckily, at the airports without airline service(read: TSA), I can still explore freely more or less.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

Private insurance is still affordable, but commercial insurance is in orbit. The only way to do it is to keep it really small, or amortize the cost over a huge fleet, and to have a huge fleet, you need big money or deep pockets.

I am in the middle of researching the economics of a 1-2 plane flying club. I was actually pleased with what Avemco had to say. Annual rate was reasonable, they didn't care about composition of members (students were okay), and they allowed member CFI's to instruct other members (they encouraged club to require CFI's to carry but did not stipulate). They didn't require a roster and said that a member was anybody we said it was, rate was based on total members.

I found the terms quite liberal and was surprised that they didn't wipe out some commercial activity within the club.

Of course, a flying club operating as an LLC has some characteristics of private and commercial operations.

 

[Richman]

Clubs are a different deal. Be really sure about the insurance. There's a number of ins/outs and whether the insurance protects only the club/club assets or you desire to cover the members as well.

Richman

 

[Pilot Fighter]

Clubs are a different deal. Be really sure about the insurance. There's a number of ins/outs and whether the insurance protects only the club/club assets or you desire to cover the members as well.

Richman

It's pretty straight-forward, but you have to evaluate every possible circumstance to make sure everybody and the club is covered. We will consult an attorney before we launch. We are still in the research stage, but things look pretty damn inviting.