Opinions about above average flight training

[Springer]

Amazes me that students get lost following the coast in Florida...

I had to chuckle at that. I did my PPL training at KHNL. For the x-country part we just counted islands.

WRT the OP's question, we received our training through AFROTC FIP program where the AF contracted with the local FBO to provide us with 33 hrs of instruction. The FAA waived the 40 hr requirement and checked us at the end of our training period.

 

[killbilly]

I don't know how we managed back in the day, flying around without GPS. Didn't even have LORAN.

I can totally remember crossing off navlog checkpoints on student cross countries (rural New England all kind of looks the same from 3000'). Amazes me that students get lost following the coast in Florida...

In Texas, lakes were your saving grace by day, airport beacons by night. I got a little bit lost on my first solo XC flight, so I climbed some to get a better picture, circled, figured out where I was in relation to a lake, and then followed that right to my airport. (I was ridiculously proud of myself for that one.) We spent the bare minimum of time on VOR navigation, but a LOT of time on using sectionals.

I've gotten really rusty on that skill. Need to get back into it.

 

[Flying Ninja]

In close to 20 years, I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've been told to stay out of a Delta that I was trying to land at. The airspace around KFRG is a bigger issue - there is no good place for airwork without going a good ways away. Same problem would exist if it were untowered.

KFRG is worst place for flight training. The airspace isn't the issue. It's the volume of training. Not only are there students training there, but the tower is also a training tower. Radio communication complicates things with student pilots and it delays the flow of traffic because tower has to call several times and/or clarify. Add to it the corporate jets who always get preferential treatment and priority which means breaking off final to rejoin the downwind, and the regular weekend warriors who make a muck of the traffic pattern because they don't know how to enter it or get confused as to where they are in the pattern and cutting other airplanes off. The run-up areas are also small and when it gets busy, it's grid lock getting in and out of those places. The tower would do their best to launch and recover airplanes but then there would be times when they could have launched three airplanes in the gap that opens up in the pattern and don't for no good reason. Half the time you can hear them laughing in the background over the frequencies so they're not really taking it seriously. And when you ask, they just tell you to stand by. I've sat at the hold short line for 45 minutes waiting for a takeoff clearance; and sitting waiting for 30 minutes isn't uncommon on the weekends. I've literally watched the Hobbs meter tick away 30+ minutes with no release in sight and opted to turn around to go back to the ramp and call it a day.

And if you're unlucky to be waiting in sequence behind a jet, the tower won't allow for intersection takeoffs for "liability" reasons. Yet, when they recognize a local who has gotten friendly with the tower, it's an immediate launch off any intersection.

The practice areas are 12 NM away which adds to training time. That tower will tell you to remain clear of delta, and they will run both downwind legs from shore to shore when it gets busy. "Extend downwind" is more the normal than not. It is the proverbial crap show at KFRG.

There is a non-towered airport (KHWV) and training to certification is much faster than at KFRG. But students don't travel all the way out to KHWV to train because KFRG is a lot more accessible by public transportation. Heck, people don't really even commute to KISP to train, which is easier getting in and out than KFRG.

Here's a sample from this past Saturday and you'll understand what I mean. And we're not even in peak flight training season yet!

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kfrg/KFRG-Twr1-Feb-18-2017-1630Z.mp3

 

[Bear]

Does it happen! CFIs for their own need to fly another day, tell a student in very direct and uncertain terms, you should not, could not and will not in my aircraft ever achieve piloting skills.

 

[Roger Roger]

In Texas, lakes were your saving grace by day, airport beacons by night. I got a little bit lost on my first solo XC flight, so I climbed some to get a better picture, circled, figured out where I was in relation to a lake, and then followed that right to my airport. (I was ridiculously proud of myself for that one.) We spent the bare minimum of time on VOR navigation, but a LOT of time on using sectionals.

I've gotten really rusty on that skill. Need to get back into it.

Yeah, except every lake looked the same with the little dam at one end.

 

[killbilly]

Yeah, except every lake looked the same with the little dam at one end.

"So ya got this magnetic compass thing on the dash...and you orient that with what you see on the ground...."

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Does it happen! CFIs for their own need to fly another day, tell a student in very direct and uncertain terms, you should not, could not and will not in my aircraft ever achieve piloting skills.

That's not very 'bro'-like.

 

[Hacker15e]

I still want to find out where I can get some of this "above average flight training".

 

[milleR]

I still want to find out where I can get some of this "above average flight training".

I'll see where I can fit you in

 

[Hacker15e]

I'll see where I can fit you in

 

[milleR]

Well played sir. Well played.

 

[flyboy6585]

Dude, this is a question without answer as it is currently phrased.

Factors that would directly affect the required time:

1. How many flights a week?
2. Are the with the same instructor every time?
3. Number of hours put in on ground to cover all facets of academics/flight/and regs?
4. Unique airspace limitations that require 10-20 extra minutes to get the to "practice area"?
5. Density of traffic at the principal field of operations?
6. Is the syllabus designed to get the student extra requirements towards additional ratings?
7. Aircraft type and avionics suite?
8. Average weather during the course of training.
9. Students aptitude?

I personally think that the first 3 questions have the highest direct impact on whether a student can acquire a rating/certificate in the minimal time or if they will require additional hours in the plane. If a student flies 3-4 times a week, does ground instruction/study before and after every flight, and flies at least the majority of flights with the same instructor, the total hours required should be around 40-50. Additionally, an aircraft with a G1000 will take students a few extra hours all else being equal simply because it will take a few extra minutes to set up over a C150 with 1 radio/nav. I can get a C150 from start to takeoff (minus taxi and warm up) in about 30 seconds. Doubt a G1000 pilot will routinely do the same and every few minutes added will accumulate over the course of a training program.

 

[killbilly]

I still want to find out where I can get some of this "above average flight training".

You already had it, courtesy of Uncle Sam.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Just an observation, I think that the number of lessons is a far better metric than the number of hours. I suspect 30 to 40 lessons are typical for a private pilot candidate, and they probably last about 1.3 hours. If the length of the lessons are substantially longer, the airspace or the airport may be a factor. If the number of lessons is far greater, why? I suspect that it is typically because lessons are repeated - either because they student lacks confidence and wants more practice, or because a topic is challenging to the student and the instructor repeats the lesson until they "get it."

When I have students of another instructor, it is usually to focus on a topic they have trouble with. The feedback I often hear is that the correct procedure wasn't demonstrated to them enough. There is a tendency to have students fly the airplane as much as possible, which is good. But demonstrating things repeatedly can also have an impact on how quickly students learn. In my limited experience, practicing things that the student finds challenging results in a lot of practice for very little progress.

 

[Bear]

In 1933, a minimum 50 hours was the standard to carry passengers. A 1946 Civil Aeronautics Journal noted the 40-hour minimum to obtain a private pilot license without using radio navigation, communication, night flying, instrument flight, and so much more.

 

[killbilly]

Just an observation, I think that the number of lessons is a far better metric than the number of hours. I suspect 30 to 40 lessons are typical for a private pilot candidate, and they probably last about 1.3 hours. If the length of the lessons are substantially longer, the airspace or the airport may be a factor. If the number of lessons is far greater, why? I suspect that it is typically because lessons are repeated - either because they student lacks confidence and wants more practice, or because a topic is challenging to the student and the instructor repeats the lesson until they "get it."

When I have students of another instructor, it is usually to focus on a topic they have trouble with. The feedback I often hear is that that correct procedure wasn't demonstrated to them enough. There is a tendency to have students fly the airplane as much as possible, which is good. But demonstrating things repeatedly can also have an impact on how quickly students learn. In my limited experience, practicing things that the student finds challenging results in a lot of practice for very little progress.

You might be on to something. I am betting there is a ratio of the number of lessons against the time interval between those lessons. There is something to be said for frequency. I realize that might not have applied to you, but it does apply to many students. It is almost axiomatic that students who fly 2-3 times a week progress more quickly than those who fly twice a month.

I've had two different instructors help me out with specific things that I struggled with another instructor on. In both cases, they simply presented the material to me in a different way and things clicked.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

You might be on to something. I am betting there is a ratio of the number of lessons against the time interval between those lessons. There is something to be said for frequency. I realize that might not have applied to you, but it does apply to many students. It is almost axiomatic that students who fly 2-3 times a week progress more quickly than those who fly twice a month.

I calendar time, 4 times faster probably! Without data though, it isn't a question that can be answered. Good news, many of us keep electronic logbooks, so data is reasonably to get now. I think there may be a correlation, I'm just skeptical that the effect is pronounced enough to make a huge difference. Anyway, if enough part 61 CFIs want to share their logbooks (and they put student names in the remarks), it isn't a hard thing to calculate.