Opinions about above average flight training

[JOEFRIDAY2]

I'm not sure how to answer this. There are a lot of variables here.

While it is true that some schools do "milk" their students to get more money out of them because they actually get paid less to finish them up faster; that is not always the case.

If you are going to be a professional pilot, the cheapest hours you will ever buy will be during your private pilot training. And all of those private pilot hours count towards the 1500 you need for your ATP.

So why would you want to cut your private hours short?

Again you need 1500 hours for your ATP. Those that shortcut the private hours will often end up later flying "time building' trips to no where in an effort to gain the required number of hours.

My advice is to find a good flight instructor and not rush the private training. This is where you build your foundation and every hour you log as a private pilot is beneficial to you.

 

[moxiepilot]

Hey everyone...

I am a CFI doing some research about the opinions of pilots on the topic of training hours required for private pilot students. Most CFIs have encountered the "90 hour private pilot", and throw that out as a descriptor for a problem student but at one school in my area, 90 hours seems to be a regular occurrence. The average is over 85 hours, with a worst case extreme at 122 hours. In this case, the "average" student at this school is nearly a 90 hour private pilot. AOPA and the FAA both suggest that the national average is somewhere between 60-75 hours.

I realize that multiple variables will play into the hours required, like weather, aircraft availability, etc. In this case, the school is not located in an area with an overly harsh winter... (I'll let you use your imagination there)

It should also be said that the school is not a "pilot mill" for international training. While there are some foreign students, it only makes up 5%-10% of their students (again, on average). The school offers both 61 and 141 instruction.

Please vote, and feel free to share your opinions on the matter. I'm interested in hearing what everyone thinks!!!

There is no broad stroke correlation between average student hour pilot certificate completion and quality of instruction.

Yes, some better instructors communicate with students more effectively, and those students translate that information into progress. However, GROUND instruction, student participation and student incentive are teh largest factors in reducing hours spent in aircraft towards certification.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

I don't think this is a good question, there isn't a relationship established between what is being measure (hours of training) to an otherwise independent variable (quality of training).

I've seen pilots take over 300 hours before being ready for a PPL ride, and others take 40, in identical training environments, and they had similar airmanship skills at the end.

How long it takes has more to do with the student and their goals than the school. Most flight schools I've seen are remarkably similar anyway (most differences in training are due to different instructors, school has very little to do with it at the end of the day.)

 

[TWP]

It really depends. Some schools have examiners who will give out certificates as long as the guy can get the thing up and down so their hours to pass time look good on paper. Other schools are absolutely actively conducting operations in a manner to milk hours from students.

In order to truly tell what's happening, you'd have to sit down with the student and ACTUALLY hold him to the PTS. Every little bit of it. If the guy can breeze through it like it's no problem, that school does a good job.

If you hold a high standard, it's completely reasonable to be passing students 10 hours above the national average, because the "average" check ride is pretty weak. When you talk to commercial pilots from other schools, who can't answer simple questions on airspace while your private pilots could teach the entire book, you get an idea of what passes for "average" out in the wild.

 

[Flyinthrew]

In order to truly tell what's happening, you'd have to sit down with the student and ACTUALLY hold him to the PTS. Every little bit of it. If the guy can breeze through it like it's no problem, that school does a good job.

This times 1000. I would even argue that total flight time doesn't have a whole lot to do with how they perform. If I properly brief a student how to do a maneuver prior to the flight, there's a pretty good chance he's going to perform it within standards on his first or second try. Same with knowledge. The knowledge piece requires no flight time. I charge the same for ground and flight instruction, and could care less how many hours I get.

If you hold a high standard, it's completely reasonable to be passing students 10 hours above the national average, because the "average" check ride is pretty weak. When you talk to commercial pilots from other schools, who can't answer simple questions on airspace while your private pilots could teach the entire book, you get an idea of what passes for "average" out in the wild.

I've seen it when I picked up an orphaned student. Had 15 hours of dual, and knew almost nothing. He wasn't dumb either. He was really bright, but his previous instructor just met him at the plane and told him to get in, and that was it. That CFI is at a regional now. The student will probably go to check ride with 50-55 hours as what I would call a quality product.

 

[ChasenSFO]

I had 100 hours on the dot when I took my PPL ride. My first lesson was at 15, got my private at 20, never flew more than 3-4 times in a month in between, often a few months went by between lessons. Took a while, but I didn't owe a penny when it was done. Not everyone has the money to fly enough to knock it out in 40 hours, nor do they wish to go into debt to do it.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

I had 100 hours on the dot when I took my PPL ride. My first lesson was at 15, got my private at 20, never flew more than 3-4 times in a month in between, often a few months went by between lessons. Took a while, but I didn't owe a penny when it was done.

I think my PPL was just about 40 hours, done in a little over a year. Never flew more than 3 times/month. Had a few advantages though, a not-busy airport, all training in Cessna 152s, which are pretty simple things to learn. And it was cheap back then. I think I was paying $34/hour wet. Of course, I didn't realize what a deal that was at the time. Should have flown another 100 hours solo just because...

 

[ChasenSFO]

I think my PPL was just about 40 hours, done in a little over a year. Never flew more than 3 times/month. Had a few advantages though, a not-busy airport, all training in Cessna 152s, which are pretty simple things to learn. And it was cheap back then. I think I was paying $34/hour wet. Of course, I didn't realize what a deal that was at the time. Should have flown another 100 hours solo just because...

Haha man, for me it was $60/hr CFI and about $150/wet for the 172...often went 2-4 months between flights then would do 1-3 in lessons a month then be too poor again. Didn't help that I kept losing my solo privileges due to the wacky 6-knot wind limit and getting my solo XCs done took 6 months. Knocked it out eventually, but I don't think the SFO Bravo had anything to do with it, I was very nerdy about ATC and was comfortable on the radio fast thanks to years of VATSIM. It was just financial. Still is financial, didn't think I'd be paying off a mortgage being 26 in the Bay Area but life happens how it happens.

 

[Flying Ninja]

If you train out of a quiet non-towered airport, with regular training frequency and consistent studying, it could take you 40 hours.

If you train out of an airport like KFRG where the traffic pattern is basically the size of the width of Long Island where you're number 10 for takeoff and/or for landing, it'll take you over 100 hours, with regular training frequency and consistent study.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

If you train out of a quiet non-towered airport, with regular training frequency and consistent studying, it could take you 40 hours.

The age and motivation of the student are way bigger factors. If you are motivated, study, and show up - things move faster. If you are young, you probably learn faster, or at least have fewer distractions.

Size of the pattern or whether it is towered makes very little difference. You might be flying to a less-busy field to do pattern work, but honestly, how many times will that happen? I had 8 lessons that were in the pattern only, so that is maybe another 5 or 6 hours flying to another airport. And some of that would likely replace dual x-country flights if planned well.

 

[Flying Ninja]

Size of the pattern or whether it is towered makes very little difference. You might be flying to a less-busy field to do pattern work, but honestly, how many times will that happen? I had 8 lessons that were in the pattern only, so that is maybe another 5 or 6 hours flying to another airport. And some of that would likely replace dual x-country flights if planned well.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Smaller pattern = less time. Bigger pattern = more time. It's physics.

And flying to another airport is dandy, but you still have to wait 30 minutes or more for takeoff, and then another 20 minutes to get back on the ground...if you are even allowed back into the delta airspace. So don't tell me pattern size and tower doesn't matter. Clearly you have never trained out of KFRG.

 

[Flyinthrew]

That escalated quickly.

 

[ChasenSFO]

You don't know what you're talking about.

Smaller pattern = less time. Bigger pattern = more time. It's physics.

And flying to another airport is dandy, but you still have to wait 30 minutes or more for takeoff, and then another 20 minutes to get back on the ground...if you are even allowed back into the delta airspace. So don't tell me pattern size and tower doesn't matter. Clearly you have never trained out of KFRG.

Uh...there are ways to get that point across without being so...hostile...

 

[drunkenbeagle]

And flying to another airport is dandy, but you still have to wait 30 minutes or more for takeoff, and then another 20 minutes to get back on the ground...if you are even allowed back into the delta airspace. So don't tell me pattern size and tower doesn't matter. Clearly you have never trained out of KFRG.

In close to 20 years, I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've been told to stay out of a Delta that I was trying to land at. In each case a plane had crashed there. But anyway, ran the numbers. I had 39 logbook entries before a PPL, 11 of those solos. That works out to 28 dual instruction flights and 35 hours dual received. Bigger airport will add some taxi time, but not 65 hours. That would be more than an extra 2 hours every lesson.

The airspace around KFRG is a bigger issue - there is no good place for airwork without going a good ways away. Same problem would exist if it were untowered.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

Hey everyone...

I am a CFI doing some research about the opinions of pilots on the topic of training hours required for private pilot students. Most CFIs have encountered the "90 hour private pilot", and throw that out as a descriptor for a problem student but at one school in my area, 90 hours seems to be a regular occurrence. The average is over 85 hours, with a worst case extreme at 122 hours. In this case, the "average" student at this school is nearly a 90 hour private pilot. AOPA and the FAA both suggest that the national average is somewhere between 60-75 hours.

I realize that multiple variables will play into the hours required, like weather, aircraft availability, etc. In this case, the school is not located in an area with an overly harsh winter... (I'll let you use your imagination there)

It should also be said that the school is not a "pilot mill" for international training. While there are some foreign students, it only makes up 5%-10% of their students (again, on average). The school offers both 61 and 141 instruction.

Please vote, and feel free to share your opinions on the matter. I'm interested in hearing what everyone thinks!!!

Too many unknowns.
Type of students. Does this school serve primarily professional people who are typically working a lot and get to train only once or twice (or less) a week?
Wx. I know you mentioned it, but it does play a part in continuity of training.
Airspace. Is this school in a very congested area that requires extensive airspace/regs training in order that an instructor feel confident about releasing a student to practice on his own?
Quality of instructors. I've observed that newby instructors and veteran instructors both tend to have higher hour checkride sign-off hours, but for different reasons.
I have never put much truck in number-of-hours to measure student (or pilot) progress or competency. Competency is competency. Folks achieve competency at vastly varying rates.
When you see the kind of overall average you are indicating, it could be a problem... or not.
What's the first time checkride pass rate for the students at that school? What's the instructors' average first-time student pass rate? Lots of accidents/incidents/bent metal before or after certification? What's the average time to solo? Etc. etc.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

I charge the same for ground and flight instruction, and could care less how many hours I get.

I'm almost certain you meant to say you could NOT care less.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

You don't know what you're talking about.

Smaller pattern = less time. Bigger pattern = more time. It's physics.

And flying to another airport is dandy, but you still have to wait 30 minutes or more for takeoff, and then another 20 minutes to get back on the ground...if you are even allowed back into the delta airspace. So don't tell me pattern size and tower doesn't matter. Clearly you have never trained out of KFRG.

Lighten up, Francis.

That escalated quickly.

Isn't there a mental health component to medical exams anymore???

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Airspace. Is this school in a very congested area that requires extensive airspace/regs training in order that an instructor feel confident about releasing a student to practice on his own?

I can kind of see that, at least at the solo cross country phase. But those are towards the end of training, by which point airspace should be pretty well covered. (I would hope at least)

 

[Deleted member 27505]

I can kind of see that, at least at the solo cross country phase. But those are towards the end of training, by which point airspace should be pretty well covered. (I would hope at least)

You'd be surprised. Extreme miseries are born of extreme hopes, and vice versa.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

You'd be surprised. Extreme miseries are born of extreme hopes, and vice versa.

I don't know how we managed back in the day, flying around without GPS. Didn't even have LORAN.

I can totally remember crossing off navlog checkpoints on student cross countries (rural New England all kind of looks the same from 3000'). Amazes me that students get lost following the coast in Florida...