Open Dialogue

desertdog71

desertdog71

Girthy Member
OK, I am looking to have an open discussion about the state of things. Being a newcomer to this industry, I feel that I may have some misconceptions about things. I would like to know what active pilots think.

My background is in the trucking industry. In that business much like aviation you get paid only when the truck is rolling. You waste alot of time sitting and waiting on freight and traffic etc. Pay is based on a certain amount per mile. Not per mile driven, but based on Rand McNally mileage, which means you get screwed about 10% on average. The DOT states that you may only work 70 hours in an 8 day period of time. You also may only drive 11 hours a day and be On-duty for 14 hours. That being said, every trucker on the planet fudges his logbooks in order to make as much money as possible in those alloted hours. On average I worked 70-80 hours a week. Stayed on the road for 3-4 weeks at a time, and got only 2-3 days off when I came home. Generally you get one day off for every 7 on the road. There is no union except for some selected companies. The quality of life sucks because you literally live inside your truck. You eat sleep watch TV etc in the cab. You deal with poor drivers, weather delays, The DOT trying to bend you over at every opportunity and shippers and recievers that treat you like crap. Sounds alot like Aviation doesn't it?

Now my experience with Union warehouses was far from pleasant. I found them to be very disorganized, slow, lazy and inflexible. I even had a woman stop in mid-signature dropped her pen and made me wait an hour to get my bills of lading because the lunch bell rang. I have went into warehouses and been threatened, had crap thrown at me and verbally attacked because I had a job to do, and they were pissed at management. Needless to say my opinion of Unions is very low.

I have a problem with an organization telling me when to work and when I shouldn't. What I should make, when I should take my breaks and so on. I may be out of line on this, but I have always done well on my own without assistance.

What I need from you is to hear some reasons why the Unions are important in aviation? Why working 80 hours a month is so terrible? Why does everyone feel like they are a victim? I want to understand these things so I can be more educated about the system when I start my Career.

I realize in the past I have made some comments that have pissed people off. I am just having a hard time understanding the discontent, and I need to get some information. I hope that this can be kept cordial, I do not wish for this to turn ugly and personal as things often do.

Thanks
 
Here's my take on the situation, coming from a CFI, not an airline pilot, so take it with a grain of salt:

Pilots work really hard to get to the airlines. They spend close to $50,000 on the flight training, which is fairly intense for several years, get a college degree, work their butts off as instructors or jump pilots or whatever, making poverty-level wages, then they just begin to reach the airlines.

Once in the airlines, they have to maintain a good medical record and pass recurrent training.

From my very limited knowledge of trucking, you can pretty much start at a community college, spend a few months in training, which doesn't cost that much (compared to $50k), and once you get a job, you don't have to worry so much about the recurrent training/medical issues. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, as I might be severely uninformed, but this is the impression I've always gotten.

To sum it up, pilots have to work harder to get to the top and stay at the top once they get there. Personally, I don't see the time away from home of as much of an issue as the lowering pay. It's taken much more work to be an airline pilot than a trucker, so the pay should represent that effort.
 
Dog-

My opinion and .02, since you asked:

I believe that you answered this question:
desertdog71 said:
What I need from you is to hear some reasons why the Unions are important in aviation?
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with your own words:
desertdog71 said:
On average I worked 70-80 hours a week. Stayed on the road for 3-4 weeks at a time, and got only 2-3 days off when I came home. Generally you get one day off for every 7 on the road. There is no union except for some selected companies. The quality of life sucks because you literally live inside your truck.
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If airline management could, they would have us do exactly what you said above, just to "live the dream". Unions aren't always necessary, and some airlines work well without them (SWA, Jetblue, etc). But having worked at both union, and non-union shops, I would be hesitant to go back to a non-union carrier. The protections offered from management abuse is worth EVERY PENNY of my union dues.

Just in the last 4 months I have seen some friends of mine (at a non-union outfit) make some safety minded decisions in the course of flying. It made the freight late and cost the company some revenue. Management went out of their way to make sure these pilots "paid for it" on their next checkrides. Classy.

Sad to say, but unions also serve to protect pilots from ourselves. Pilots are a dime a dozen. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise . . . not Kit, not ATP, nobody. Somebody will always be there to do your job for less, be willing to:
desertdog71 said:
fudges his logbooks in order to make as much money as possible in those alloted hours.
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or do anything else to get the hours to climb the ladder to the majors. Unions help to establish standards for pay, work rules, training, etc., that all pilots must abide by. No "buddy-buddy", no "good ol' boys club". I am the type of pilot that goes to work, does his job to the best of his abilities, and goes home to be with the family. The union makes sure that I am treated just as fairly, and afforded the same opportunities, as someone who may do the things described above.

I know, I know . . . some will chime in with how corrupt unions are etc. and I'll be the first to admit that there has certainly been problems. Most unions are only as good as the leaders and volunteers that help run them. That being said, I'm a firm believer that mangement gets the union it deserves. Treat us fairly and you get productive, happy pilots. Simple as that.

NightCargo
 
Desertdog:

I have driven trucks (only for 6 mo in college), been a CFI, 135 cargo pilot, airline pilot, and now back to 121 cargo.

A lot of the frustration occurs in this industry because what management, the unions and the courts are doing. The pay is low starting and doesn't get much better until you upgrade. I used to be for unions and I am now against them after getting screwed over by teamsters but that is another story.

Aviation isn't as glamorous as it used to be. There is no respect by the general public or managment. If a flight cancels and you are around expect to get yelled at by some and all you can really do is just walk away. Management will always try to get the maximum out of you and pay you the least. You will be shorted on pay and argue with management or the union to get it 6 months later.

For example: you just flew 5 legs on your last day of a 4 day schedule when the CSA walks down and tell you to call the company. Crew Scheduling is ordering you to work another 2 days. Great you are now working 6 days. On the 7th day are off. Guess what day 7 is the last day of your original 3 days off. Well you're off to work another 4-6 day pairing. You were originally were senior enough to bid 17 days off but scheduling saw fit to reschedule you down the union min of 11. What? you did go over the guarantee hours, no extra pay either. That happened to me several months in a row at my last company. The companies are also famous for working you 16 hours then have you ferry a plane part 91 for another 4, not safe or wise but legal. Remember legal doesn't equal safe.

Another thing that gets on our nerves in this industry is bargan shopping for hotels. You will stay in some great hotels and then there are the one every crew bitch about (i.e. dirty, bugs, no food near by, etc). Once you stay on the road 200+ days a year it will get to you to. Yes, I know it is better than the sleeper on a truck.

Another problem are ineffecient and uncommutable schedules. There is something to be said for living in base. It can save money and stress. Not all, but some lines are not commutable from where you live. This means you have to travel to work the day before and leave the day after. Thus making you purchase your own hotel room on each end or sleep in the over crowded crew room.

Another problem is ineffecient schedules. I can't remember how many airport appreciation hours I have racked up. You fly 1 hour leg then have 4:30 then fly another 1 hour leg then sit again for 2:30 a 45 min leg to end the day.

On the bright side of things you will work with some great people, see some great places (hopefully you have a long layover), and fly some nice equipment (if you get lucky). You also don't have a boss looking over your shoulder at the office. Once the door closes for push back it is just you, ATC, and blue sky. One of my favorite times is climb through an overcast layer and breaking out into the bright blue sunny sky or starlit sky.

As bad as this job can get at times most of us can't imagine doing anything else. Any questions just send me a PM Ddog.
 
I know, I know . . . some will chime in with how corrupt unions are etc. and I'll be the first to admit that there has certainly been problems. Most unions are only as good as the leaders and volunteers that help run them. That being said, I'm a firm believer that management gets the union it deserves. Treat us fairly and you get productive, happy pilots. Simple as that.
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Nightcargo what union do you belong to? Have you ever had to call on them? I am in a non-union job right now and I have been treated exponentially better than I ever was treated in a union.
 
"I have a problem with an organization telling me when to work and when I shouldn't. What I should make, when I should take my breaks and so on. I may be out of line on this, but I have always done well on my own without assistance"

The vast majority of airline pilots will tell you they are better off with their union than without one. I know, for sure, I am. I guess you'll just have to trust the masses on this one until such time as you see for yourself.

By the way, who says we only "work" 80 hours a month. Sounds like something management would say. Say you put in a 10 hour day 18 days a month. You just worked 180 hours a month in my book. It's commonly considered working when you are on duty in this biz, not just flight time.
 
MDPilot said:
BTW, Night Cargo, SWA has a pilot union.
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My mistake, you are right! Southwest has the SWAPA, which is it's own in-house union and not affiliated with any other national union.

Bandit_Driver said:
Nightcargo what union do you belong to? Have you ever had to call on them? I am in a non-union job right now and I have been treated exponentially better than I ever was treated in a union.
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We have the teamsters on the property, and I have had to call on them for various reasons. So far I haven't had any problems and the stewards have always been available to answer questions. I haven't been called in to the CPs office for a carpet dance yet , but with a while to go till retirement, I'm sure I eventually will. When that time comes, you can bet that a steward will be there to represent me.

If a labor force is treated fairly, and with respect, then a union will never make its way on to the property. You said that you now work for a non-union company now, and are treated well. I applaud both you and the company for that and in an ideal world, that is the way it should work. The non-union place that I worked used to treat their pilots really well, until the business started to sour a little. At that point the "pro-pilot" policies began to change for the worse. Most of the changes came with little notice, and without any say from the pilot group. Even when the pilots did protest, management just shrugged and told us that if we didn't like it, tough.

I'm not saying that unions haven't screwed things up some too. They have in the past, and they continue to do so today. But, like I said before, management get the unions they deserve.

Dog-
As far as educating yourself on unions and airlines, I second MDPilot's suggestion on reading "Flying the Line".

Regards,
NightCargo
 
I worked for a company while it was non-union and we were treated fairly, equitably and it was almost a 'country club' environment for a period of time.

Then, virutally overnight, things changed with the new director of operations.

We went from pretty nice schedules with up to 18 days off in some lines to 11 days off max for ALL lines and a little bit of reserve mixed in with even the most senior lines.

Anyone remember, oh geez, the reign of terror of "W. Just"? :)

Favorite quote: "Ahh Ahh, I tend to disagree and ahh ahh, this is why"

The work "rules" became more of a basic unenforceable guidance that the company strived to follow, but didn't.

Crew scheduling went from a lady who tried to do what would both good for the company and liveable for the pilot group to a guy who quite frankly, if you made eye contact with him near the exit to the pilot lounge, you were going to get assigned a trip on your day off almost off the bat. (happened to me!)

Or even if you were lucky enough to bid a specific weekend off to attend a function, well, you could have an unpaid trip to recurrent training scheduled for that day.

The lady in human resources was known to troll the terminal looking for pilots for random drug testing whether or not you were on duty at all. That happened to me as well when I was commuting to MKE from MQT on my day off in uniform.

Recourse? Zero. Fuggetabowtit.

My favorite quote from the chief pilot:

"Why would someone leave here to go to work for (airline)"?

"More money, (blanks) got a kid and a pregnant wife! Maybe if we made more guys like (blank) wouldn't leave here to go to work for (airline)"

"Ha! All 120 of you guys can quit tomorrow and I've got a stack of resumes from pilot that want to do your job for what you're making today and probably less!" (Gustlock "G")
 
I appreciate the input thus far, and I will pick up that book and read it. Like I said before, coming from my background I have a different perspective, however I never intended to come across as disrespectful either.

Keep with the posts though, I like to get these insights.

MKE? Doug, sounds like Midwest Express. That was a great place from a passenger perspective at one time also. Things have definately changed.
 
meritflyer said:
Hey! Whats that supposed to mean?
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Dunno, probably because you hate the very thing that holds up the profession that you're trying to get into. It's kind of a conflict of interests if you will.

The company will do everything they can do to screw you, and they don't care about you. If they could make a few more bucks by getting rid of you, they would. Hence, you should try to screw them (managment) at every turn and get every extra penny you can out of them because when the music stops, they're going to be the ones sittin' pretty; not you.
 
John Herreshoff said:
Dunno, probably because you hate the very thing that holds up the profession that you're trying to get into. It's kind of a conflict of interests if you will.

The company will do everything they can do to screw you, and they don't care about you. If they could make a few more bucks by getting rid of you, they would. Hence, you should try to screw them (managment) at every turn and get every extra penny you can out of them because when the music stops, they're going to be the ones sittin' pretty; not you.
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I may have forgot the sarcasm tag on that post. Unions either need to put up or shut up. What has the ALPA done that is constructive lately? Not a whole lot.
 
meritflyer said:
I may have forgot the sarcasm tag on that post. Unions either need to put up or shut up. What has the ALPA done that is constructive lately? Not a whole lot.
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Lets see trying to keep their pilots wages. How would you feel if your pay was just slashed 30 percent one day. You wouldnt like it, nor would your family.
 
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