On-call and Rest for Part 135

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Every interpretation on the subject says the rest must be prospective. That is you have to know before hand.

But it doesn't have to be "scheduled in advance in writing." A simple phone call saying hey, you are going on rest now, is prospective.

 

[ppragman]

But it doesn't have to be "scheduled in advance in writing." A simple phone call saying hey, you are going on rest now, is prospective.

Well, it's only rest if you don't have any duty to answer your phone or work if the occasion arises. There's lots of bogus definitions of rest out there.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Well, it's only rest if you don't have any duty to answer your phone or work if the occasion arises. There's lots of bogus definitions of rest out there.

Well, yeah. What does that have to do with what I posted?

 

[ppragman]

Well, yeah. What does that have to do with what I posted?

I'm just continuing to murder the dead horse.

 

[1Wingnut]

Raising this thread from the dead, because I think it is still relevant. I just turned down an otherwise good job that I think I had in the bag because the Director of Operations let it be known they operate 24/7 on call. When I pointed out it was not legal, he waffled and talked about how the regs are "not clear", and they have to do it because they are charter on demand. Basically it was like someone driving 55 mph in a 30, and justifying it by saying they were in a hurry. To all those who say following 135.267 and the associated crew rest rules means that you will have to sit in an airport for 12 hours a day, whether you have a flight or not, I would say that is not true. You can take flights that start and end at any time as long as you are notified 10 hours in advance. Or you can operate under a hybrid system where your official duty day runs from 9 am to 11 pm - BUT- if charter gets a booking outside that time, they can call and just put you in rest, and you are good to do the flight 10 hours from that point. They get a call for a customer that wants to depart at 7am, and the call comes in after 9 pm? Tell them your crew is in rest, and will be available in 10 hours, or at 9 am, whichever comes first. How many times out of all the flights a charter department does, is there a customer calling last minute, with zero flexibility, that doesn't give you any notice and wants to arrive at their destination after 11pm? 2%, maybe? If that happens and you don't have a crew who can do it legally, farm it out to another company with more options. It is really not a big enough problem to make operating illegally a routine practice. It is not going to sink your company to just follow the rules! /end rant

 

[1Wingnut]

A fresh link to the relevant Office of the Chief Counsel Letter of Interpretation

https://www.nbaa.org/ops/part135/Orellana-Legal-Interpretation.pdf

 

[Inverted]

Good for you.

The regs are actually quite clear, and the fact that it takes several letters of interpretation to further clarify is even more weird.

 

[z987k]

Raising this thread from the dead, because I think it is still relevant. I just turned down an otherwise good job that I think I had in the bag because the Director of Operations let it be known they operate 24/7 on call. When I pointed out it was not legal, he waffled and talked about how the regs are "not clear", and they have to do it because they are charter on demand. Basically it was like someone driving 55 mph in a 30, and justifying it by saying they were in a hurry. To all those who say following 135.267 and the associated crew rest rules means that you will have to sit in an airport for 12 hours a day, whether you have a flight or not, I would say that is not true. You can take flights that start and end at any time as long as you are notified 10 hours in advance. Or you can operate under a hybrid system where your official duty day runs from 9 am to 11 pm - BUT- if charter gets a booking outside that time, they can call and just put you in rest, and you are good to do the flight 10 hours from that point. They get a call for a customer that wants to depart at 7am, and the call comes in after 9 pm? Tell them your crew is in rest, and will be available in 10 hours, or at 9 am, whichever comes first. How many times out of all the flights a charter department does, is there a customer calling last minute, with zero flexibility, that doesn't give you any notice and wants to arrive at their destination after 11pm? 2%, maybe? If that happens and you don't have a crew who can do it legally, farm it out to another company with more options. It is really not a big enough problem to make operating illegally a routine practice. It is not going to sink your company to just follow the rules! /end rant

You should report them.

 

[1Wingnut]

You should report them.

Well, no, I don't think so. I don't want to hurt the 40+ pilots working for them - either by getting them investigated, or losing their jobs. The FAA tends to be much more harsh on pilots than the 135 operators, due to the client relationship they have with 135 companies. If a POI goes around shutting down the 135 operators he oversees, pretty soon he makes his own job redundant. I don't say that is right, but it is reality. Pilots, on the other hand, easily get thrown under the bus, and I don't want to be part of that. I declined the job, and told them why. If enough of us do that, things will change.

 

[ppragman]

Well, no, I don't think so. I don't want to hurt the 40+ pilots working for them - either by getting them investigated, or losing their jobs. The FAA tends to be much more harsh on pilots than the 135 operators, due to the client relationship they have with 135 companies. If a POI goes around shutting down the 135 operators he oversees, pretty soon he makes his own job redundant. I don't say that is right, but it is reality. Pilots, on the other hand, easily get thrown under the bus, and I don't want to be part of that. I declined the job, and told them why. If enough of us do that, things will change.

This is ultimately why operators get away with doing this.

Question for the peanut gallery.

You are on rest. It's 3pm in the afternoon. The company says "hey, stay resting until 1am we need you to come on duty at 1 for a 2am departure."

Is this technically "prospective?" How much of the rest period has to be known in advance? All of it? Can you be "on rest" until you get a 10hr notice? I think it would be legit but totally unsafe depending on what it does to your sleep cycle.

 

[DE727UPS]

When your in rest you have no obligation to contactable.

 

[Stone Cold]

When your in rest you have no obligation to contactable.

I think the question was you're basically on duty, company calls and says go into rest. I think it's legal, but I'll defer to the regular 135 guys that keep up with this.

 

[deadstick]

This is ultimately why operators get away with doing this.

Question for the peanut gallery.

You are on rest. It's 3pm in the afternoon. The company says "hey, stay resting until 1am we need you to come on duty at 1 for a 2am departure."

Is this technically "prospective?" How much of the rest period has to be known in advance? All of it? Can you be "on rest" until you get a 10hr notice? I think it would be legit but totally unsafe depending on what it does to your sleep cycle.

It’s still 10 hrs after the call so that box is checked. I believe the FAA does allow the 1 call, but I’m not certain. The scenario could be more questionable if you change the show time to 11 pm after going on rest at 8 am or so and the call was still at 3pm.

 

[averettpilot]

Charter sucks! God love the pilots that do it, because nobody else does.

 

[z987k]

This is ultimately why operators get away with doing this.

Question for the peanut gallery.

You are on rest. It's 3pm in the afternoon. The company says "hey, stay resting until 1am we need you to come on duty at 1 for a 2am departure."

Is this technically "prospective?" How much of the rest period has to be known in advance? All of it? Can you be "on rest" until you get a 10hr notice? I think it would be legit but totally unsafe depending on what it does to your sleep cycle.

Yup, and the cycle continues.

To your question, yes. If they call you and put you into rest for 10 hours it's legal. It's a way you CAN do 24/7 on call. Because there is no duty time limit in 135. So have your pilots contactable 24 hours a day, and when you do contact them, tell them you're in rest, show up in 10 hours.

 

[gotWXdagain]

Yup, and the cycle continues.

To your question, yes. If they call you and put you into rest for 10 hours it's legal. It's a way you CAN do 24/7 on call. Because there is no duty time limit in 135. So have your pilots contactable 24 hours a day, and when you do contact them, tell them you're in rest, show up in 10 hours.

I’d do that job in a heartbeat provided there’s no part 91 flying in the meantime *cough cough Jack Links flight department cough cough*. Basically free money to do whatever you want, including having a beer, until they call you.

 

[z987k]

I’d do that job in a heartbeat provided there’s no part 91 flying in the meantime *cough cough Jack Links flight department cough cough*. Basically free money to do whatever you want, including having a beer, until they call you.

It's how our long call reserve works at my 121 airline as well. 24/7 on call at home. 10 hour call to report time.

 

[1Wingnut]

This is ultimately why operators get away with doing this.

Wait, so you think this is on me for not reporting them? Not on the D.O., The C.P. , the pilots who actually accept the flights, the P.O.I. who lets them slide, the FAA who don't define rest in the FARs so any idiot can understand it, but then puts it on the next page for flight attendants, etc.? If I called the FAA, you actually think anything would happen? About half of the smaller unscheduled companies do this - many even put 24/7 on call right in their advertisement. I do my part by refusing to work for them, and I tell them why. There are several well known members of this forum that actually work there. If you want to be the Don Quixote of crew rest, have at it.

 

[ppragman]

When your in rest you have no obligation to contactable.

See I don't know about this - rest only means you have no obligation for duty should the occasion arise - I'm not sure what the FAA would think about requiring someone to be available to answer the phone, but on a 10hr callout...

The other side of this that I find somewhat troubling would be a scenario where you're finishing what you thought was your rest period. You call the office and they say, "hey, we're gonn keep you in rest for another 4hrs so you can fly all night." You called them, you know about your rest in advance (like they say they're going to keep you resting)... I dunno. Glad I don't do that nonsense any more.

 

[z987k]

See I don't know about this - rest only means you have no obligation for duty should the occasion arise - I'm not sure what the FAA would think about requiring someone to be available to answer the phone, but on a 10hr callout...

The other side of this that I find somewhat troubling would be a scenario where you're finishing what you thought was your rest period. You call the office and they say, "hey, we're gonn keep you in rest for another 4hrs so you can fly all night." You called them, you know about your rest in advance (like they say they're going to keep you resting)... I dunno. Glad I don't do that nonsense any more.

Duty would include being required to answer the phone. There's loi's on that.