Dugie8
Well-Known Member
There is a "rule" that the company can't repeatedly call you while in rest, I believe. Whitlow letter/rule or maybe that's the look back rule??
On-call and Rest for Part 135
- Thread starter SrFnFly227
- Start date
There is a "rule" that the company can't repeatedly call you while in rest, I believe. Whitlow letter/rule or maybe that's the look back rule??
z987k
Well-Known Member
Eh, personally I wouldn't care about that as long as they don't expect me to answer. If it's ringing ever hour while I'm on rest I might be inclined to just put it on silent.
NewYorkophile
Fly Casual
You guys aren't alone. We fly stupidly tired in the military too, especially overseas where the "mission" pushes the more flexible rules aside.
For instance, when we sit Bravo alert, we're on call for 24 hours (sounds like you guys). At 23hrs and 59min, you can be alerted for a planned 16-hour mission that can extend to 18-hour with PIC authority. So if you had *just* gotten to sleep when that call came, you're talking about potentially shooting an ILS approach to mins after an 18-hour day on possibly zero sleep in the last 28-32 hours.
And yes, that does happen. Luckily, the Air Force culture is (IMO) VERY safety conscious, and the one or two times I called uncle on that exact scenario never came back to me negatively. I would be asked by the DO "do you feel safe to fly?", I'd answer "no", and that'd be the end of it.
Eventually, enough crews were waving the • flag that HQ stopped intentionally launching alerts without giving the crews a heads-up (unless it was a true emergency), and/or the squadrons started putting two crews on each alert cycle (one day crew, one night crew).
I heartily agree with all of you- it may take a crash of a legally flying crew to raise the issue.
For instance, when we sit Bravo alert, we're on call for 24 hours (sounds like you guys). At 23hrs and 59min, you can be alerted for a planned 16-hour mission that can extend to 18-hour with PIC authority. So if you had *just* gotten to sleep when that call came, you're talking about potentially shooting an ILS approach to mins after an 18-hour day on possibly zero sleep in the last 28-32 hours.
And yes, that does happen. Luckily, the Air Force culture is (IMO) VERY safety conscious, and the one or two times I called uncle on that exact scenario never came back to me negatively. I would be asked by the DO "do you feel safe to fly?", I'd answer "no", and that'd be the end of it.
Eventually, enough crews were waving the • flag that HQ stopped intentionally launching alerts without giving the crews a heads-up (unless it was a true emergency), and/or the squadrons started putting two crews on each alert cycle (one day crew, one night crew).
I heartily agree with all of you- it may take a crash of a legally flying crew to raise the issue.
SrFnFly227
Well-Known Member
The FAA changed around their website recently. For the future, these interpretations can be found under the Chief Council's Office section of the main FAA website.
Berry Letter:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../2009/berry - (2009) legal interpretation.pdf
Mayors Letter:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...2009/mayors - (2009) legal interpretation.pdf
Kinder Letter:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...2012/kinder - (2012) legal interpretation.pdf
The following is a more recent letter (September 2013) written to Sean Masterson. It addresses 24/7 on call and yet again, reaches the same conclusion as the previous letters:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...3/Masterson - (2013) Legal Interpretation.pdf
Berry Letter:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../2009/berry - (2009) legal interpretation.pdf
Mayors Letter:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...2009/mayors - (2009) legal interpretation.pdf
Kinder Letter:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...2012/kinder - (2012) legal interpretation.pdf
The following is a more recent letter (September 2013) written to Sean Masterson. It addresses 24/7 on call and yet again, reaches the same conclusion as the previous letters:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...3/Masterson - (2013) Legal Interpretation.pdf
Avalon781ML
Well-Known Member
My company tells the FAA that we are always on rest... and that we "answer the phone voluntarily." That might be true but if I don't "volunteer" to answer the phone when they do call I can easily be punished or fired.
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
That's a bold face lie to the FAA and the POI knows it and still doesn't satisfy the "prospective" part of rest.
Avalon781ML
Well-Known Member
I know.... thus why I am looking to leave for greener pastures.
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
I apologize, I was trying to speak down to you just speaking out loud. 135 could be the "safe bastion" of aviation if the simple rules on rest were adhered to and actively enforced.
Avalon781ML
Well-Known Member
No apology necessary... I've got thick skin and I certainly didn't think you were speaking down to me. I didn't go into this job with my eyes wide open, I screwed up, and now I am trying to rectify the situation by trying to leave. This is a great thread and everyone should be taking these documents in with them when interviewing at potential jobs if for no other reason to help educate these operators.
SrFnFly227
Well-Known Member
My company flat out tells us that we are on call 24 hours a day, with a 1 hour call out for report. They tell us that the 10 hours prior to getting a phone call was our rest. It is even written that way in our employee manual. They claim that the POI knows this and is fine with it.
The first 2 posts that I wrote in this thread were a direct result of my current employment. I wrote that in a letter and provided it to my company as a way to figure out their opinion on the matter. I was just about fired over it, but since I am the only pilot for my current plane and it was within a week of my getting home from type school, I got to keep my job. We also worked out a schedule where I am not on call day of, but rather I voluntarily pick up. I've never not picked up and I've never turned down a trip. I have however, told them when I'm having a drink, or going for a surf and would therefore not be available for a while.
This is not an easy subject as a pilot. For me, it was this or quit. The owner of the plane that I fly decided to switch management companies and my employment was attached to the owner and the plane. I just couldn't stomach going back to a regional, so I stayed and found a way to make it work in the short term. I have a bunch of applications out there, but so far I have heard nothing but crickets.
I hope this thread works as a way to make pilots aware of the fact that these practices are illegal. Once the word spreads and more people are ready to walk away from these companies, it may cause some change. Or, at least I hope so.
The first 2 posts that I wrote in this thread were a direct result of my current employment. I wrote that in a letter and provided it to my company as a way to figure out their opinion on the matter. I was just about fired over it, but since I am the only pilot for my current plane and it was within a week of my getting home from type school, I got to keep my job. We also worked out a schedule where I am not on call day of, but rather I voluntarily pick up. I've never not picked up and I've never turned down a trip. I have however, told them when I'm having a drink, or going for a surf and would therefore not be available for a while.
This is not an easy subject as a pilot. For me, it was this or quit. The owner of the plane that I fly decided to switch management companies and my employment was attached to the owner and the plane. I just couldn't stomach going back to a regional, so I stayed and found a way to make it work in the short term. I have a bunch of applications out there, but so far I have heard nothing but crickets.
I hope this thread works as a way to make pilots aware of the fact that these practices are illegal. Once the word spreads and more people are ready to walk away from these companies, it may cause some change. Or, at least I hope so.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
I'm not a huge proponent of the FAA doing anything about it, but you might check this out.
http://www.faa.gov/contact/safety_hotline/
http://www.faa.gov/contact/safety_hotline/
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
Until the FAA comes down harder on companies than it does pilots (which will never happen given the customer relationship), this will continue.
I don't quite know off the top of my head what the sanction is for pilots who violate flight time / duty time, but it should be equal.... Ie suspend pilot cert = suspend air carrier cert.
I don't quite know off the top of my head what the sanction is for pilots who violate flight time / duty time, but it should be equal.... Ie suspend pilot cert = suspend air carrier cert.
Mark815
Well-Known Member
I know this happens every day, but it's so ridiculous that the feds allow it to happen. I've talked to so many guys while sitting at FBOs and it's almost sad how many of them just laugh when I ask about a schedule. I don't understand how you guys survive the 1hr call out rules. My company assigns us rest every day that we're on duty, and I'm very glad they do. I was here for a short while when there was no "official" rest rules, so I've gotten the midnight 2hr callout a handful of times. No way I could do that my whole life.
jbp1
Well-Known Member
The way we do it at FWAC isall crew members go into rest at 2100 local and come off rest at 0700 local. No middle of the night "pop-up" trips. When they are not on rest they are on duty. Rest is adjusted according for trips that are scheduled in advance. If a trip books during the day and they client wants a 1900 departure to go from PBI-TEB, we aren't doing it if their rest period ended at 0700.
SrFnFly227
Well-Known Member
Chief Counsel put out another letter of interpretation on this yesterday. Yup, still illegal.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...15/Orellana - (2015) Legal Interpretation.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...15/Orellana - (2015) Legal Interpretation.pdf
Finny
Well-Known Member
Good.
Groundpounder
Quitter
Never gonna change unless a fairly well known 135 loses its ticket, or has a big fine, and even then most of the lower tier 135's will still take their chances. I recently started with a very large charter/management company, and I was surprised that they don't do rest known in advance. They did say there will be no repercussions if you say no to a trip due to fatigue, which is a pleasant change.
