Old dawgs vs new blood

FlapOperator

Any traffic please advise
Soooo… I moved to this small town to be closer to my dad.. and to also flight instruct in LSA bc nothing was in my radar or I prob have horrible networking skills. One month into it I get called to fly a private c172. Neat gig so far. 320 tt with 70 ifr so that’s nice.

The main stuff: I been trying to get into the corporate side of things flying right seat in a seneca 4, a king c90gtx and a meridian 500 but the pilots seem to keep shutting me out saying “going airlines is the best way to build time” instead of lending out a hand.

Is this a sign I should move on or should I keep pressing. I feel so confused bc I see people with 200tt who can’t shoot an ILS getting opportunities and then even moving to jets but me who flies 10/10 and treats plane owner well can’t seem to move up. I feel like hitting a wall every turn.

any suggestion appreciate it so very much!!!!
 

web265

Well-Known Member
Soooo… I moved to this small town to be closer to my dad.. and to also flight instruct in LSA bc nothing was in my radar or I prob have horrible networking skills. One month into it I get called to fly a private c172. Neat gig so far. 320 tt with 70 ifr so that’s nice.
I'm going to give this a go since no one else has...
I assume by the above that you found a Skyhawk owner that lost a medical or something and you're flying them around or at least PIC'ing for them to fly themselves? A great way to build a little single engine time on another person's dime. I did the same for a few of my fellow aviators at my airport early on.

The main stuff: I been trying to get into the corporate side of things flying right seat in a seneca 4, a king c90gtx and a meridian 500 but the pilots seem to keep shutting me out saying “going airlines is the best way to build time” instead of lending out a hand.
Not sure what you mean here. Is there a corporate entity on the field that uses these planes? if so have you dropped off a resume and shaken a few hands in their hangar? The other pilots are doing the hiring? Either way, if you right seated on these single pilot aircraft, you wouldn't be able to log the time anyway as they are all SP airplanes.

Assuming those total times are your totals, you would likely be VERY expensive to add to those aircraft insurance policies, that might be a factor here.

Without enough time for an ATP, the airlines aren't even an option anyway, any pilot flying commercially should know this, not sure why they would tell you this.
Is this a sign I should move on or should I keep pressing. I feel so confused bc I see people with 200tt who can’t shoot an ILS getting opportunities and then even moving to jets but me who flies 10/10 and treats plane owner well can’t seem to move up. I feel like hitting a wall every turn.
I hope you have never communicated this to anyone where the pilots your trying to work with might hear it. A little genuine humility goes a long way in this business. The attitude demonstrated in this statement will get you nowhere (probably move you backwards) Sure, you want to be confident, but, the I'm a better pilot than those guys attitude is not the one to demonstrate.

I forget if it's the t-birds or the blue angels but one of he two, each pilot when he/she says something in a debrief, starts or ends the statement with "Just happy / grateful to be here boss" or something like that. It's a sign of their humility, no one is perfect, and these are some of the finest pilots in the world.

I'd be looking for legit low time gigs, maybe get your tail wheel endorsement and fly banners, of course keep teaching, see if there is a pipeline patrol based anywhere near you etc. While you're doing that, network on whatever field your on, be courteous, friendly and helpful, believe me, people recognize this behavior.

Should you move on or keep pressing, only you can answer this. How bad do you want it? GOOD LUCK!
 

FlapOperator

Any traffic please advise
Thank you so much for your reply! There are things in your reply that I really needed to hear, from being more humble to the question "do YOU really wanna keep going?"..
I guess I'm just a little saturated from trying to get my aviation career going for almost 3 years now. But perhaps with the right ingredients and more hard work it will take off eventually.

I'm going to give this a go since no one else has...
I assume by the above that you found a Skyhawk owner that lost a medical or something and you're flying them around or at least PIC'ing for them to fly themselves? A great way to build a little single engine time on another person's dime. I did the same for a few of my fellow aviators at my airport early on.
The story behind this 172 is it's owned 4 ways, and one of the owners is a businessman who's not a pilot. Another owner is a pilot and flies the King Air I mentioned before–and is who let me into this 172 4 months ago, he's a person I'm really greatfull for.

I average 8 hours a month flying this businessman and his wife around, and perhaps the number of hours/month is what's frustrating me.

Assuming those total times are your totals, you would likely be VERY expensive to add to those aircraft insurance policies, that might be a factor here.
I was VERY fortunate that having the King Air pilot (5000 TT) listed in the policy, adding me didn't increase the insurance one dollar (thank Lord).

Not sure what you mean here. Is there a corporate entity on the field that uses these planes? if so have you dropped off a resume and shaken a few hands in their hangar? The other pilots are doing the hiring? Either way, if you right seated on these single pilot aircraft, you wouldn't be able to log the time anyway as they are all SP airplanes.
There isn't. Each airplane is privately owned. I mentioned this because now and then I'll see younger guys right seat in these planes and I know that's a great way to meet more people and show your worth. Perhaps they see me as someone who is already flying and doesn't need help(?).

I hope you have never communicated this to anyone where the pilots your trying to work with might hear it. A little genuine humility goes a long way in this business. The attitude demonstrated in this statement will get you nowhere (probably move you backwards) Sure, you want to be confident, but, the I'm a better pilot than those guys attitude is not the one to demonstrate.
Thank you specially for this.. I do see a problem with my statement, and although I have never explicitly said this around those pilots, maybe they picked it up from the way I may have reacted to something they said, or maybe my body language expresses this way of thinking.
I think if there's an attitude I need to work on is this one. I just get so frustated like I said, trying to find something for almost 3 years now, but perhaps I need to suck it up and work harder, and mind my own business instead of judging other pilots. Also, like you said, being more greatful for the opportunities that have come my way so far. I'll definitely work on this.

I'd be looking for legit low time gigs, maybe get your tail wheel endorsement and fly banners, of course keep teaching, see if there is a pipeline patrol based anywhere near you etc. While you're doing that, network on whatever field your on, be courteous, friendly and helpful, believe me, people recognize this behavior.
I do have a tailwheel endorsement. I'll look for opportunities where I can use it. Maybe I'll meet some more people along that way there.

Thank you for helping a low timer like me with this advice. I've been having trouble navigating the people part of aviation but perhaps the answer is a lot more simple and just involves appreciating those around me.
Thank you!
 

ILS37R

Well-Known Member
Hmm...

Assuming those are your total times listed, you're a long way from being (generally) corporate employable. That said, the old-timers are giving you a hand by getting you some right seat experience in airframes you normally wouldn't have access to at your experience level. They are 100% correct that you need more experience to step up in their--or similar--organizations. They may also be far enough removed from the time-building portions of their careers that they aren't aware the airlines require ATP mins these days.

All *that* said, there are always a few people who through a combination of luck and preparation (and/or nepotism...) land a job well above their qualifications. Those people are not your measuring stick.

Realistically, below 500TT you're hustling for every hour you can get--instructing, traffic or pipeline patrol, banner towing, etc. At 500TT you become employable by most entry-level survey companies and more reputable jump zones. These (and/or instructing) are typically what gets you to 1200ish hours, which is when you start to get second looks from 135 operators or can start thinking about an airline path. Get those 1200 hours and that right seat time you're building now will pay off--either the "old dawgs" can plausibly pull strings for you, or the airframe familiarity you have gives you a leg up elsewhere.

Don't worry about keepin' up with the Joneses. Focus on building in a traditional path but with an ear to the ground for other opportunities. My experience in this career is that it's a snowball rolling down the hill. At first it's really slow going without a lot of progress. But the longer you stick with it and keep moving forward, the bigger your range of opportunities becomes. If this is the career you want and you're willing to put in the work, you'll be fine*

*the sometimes cyclical, boom-or-bust nature of the business notwithstanding
 
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FlapOperator

Any traffic please advise
Don't worry about keepin' up with the Joneses. Focus on building in a traditional path but with an ear to the ground for other opportunities.
I guess keeping this in mind will bring me a lot of peace and lessen the anxiety. Thank you.

Realistically, below 500TT you're hustling for every hour you can get--instructing, traffic or pipeline patrol, banner towing, etc. At 500TT you become employable by most entry-level survey companies and more reputable jump zones. These (and/or instructing) are typically what gets you to 1200ish hours, which is when you start to get second looks from 135 operators or can start thinking about an airline path. Get those 1200 hours and that right seat time you're building now will pay off--either the "old dawgs" can plausibly pull strings for you, or the airframe familiarity you have gives you a leg up elsewhere.
I'll also keep this in mind while I fly this 172. Anything that shows up is a bonus, not necessarily a complete other path, noted!! (At first I was worried flying something else was gonna take me to a dead end and lose the current opportunity).

*the sometimes cyclical, boom-or-bust nature of the business notwithstanding
I have managed to keep from going bald so far when I think about this. My fiancée on the other hand... lol
 
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