Oh SFO tower

Cherokee_Cruiser

Cherokee_Cruiser

Bronteroc
1L/1R are closed.

The ATIS clearly says get runway numbers and brief for both 28L and 28R.

Delta DID only ask for 2 minutes.

And then the Delta pilots proceed to be, well, Delta.

Controller is 100% right.

Good on her for chewing out Delta. Sometimes, that's exactly what's needed with type A personalities.



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZzBTZctiAg
 
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Ehh, I'm with the crew on this one. I've been in that exact situation at SFO before an I insisted we hold short, especially because what I think would have taken a few minutes ended up being well north the time estimate and traffic was ten miles out, which created an operational threat in my cockpit.

It's not a matter of a simple brief, it's re-entering the appropriate numbers, confirming runway/departure/first fix and then running a runway change checklist and if the other pilot isn't 100% sharp on it, it's well north of two minutes.

Editorial comments should be saved for a phone call.

We're paid by the minute.
 
derg said:
Ehh, I'm with the crew on this one. I've been in that exact situation at SFO before an I insisted we hold short, especially because what I think would have taken a few minutes ended up being well north the time estimate and traffic was ten miles out, which created an operational threat in my cockpit.
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Well, lets be fair. SHE did say "he's 10 out, if you won't be ready, then hold short 28R."

Pilot said we only need 2 minutes, we'll be ready, and took up the line up and wait.


How complicated are your runway change checklist items? Can't be that hard/different, both runways are similar length with - what I imagine- similar engine out procedures.
 
This is so dumb.

If you need 3-4 minutes, don't ask for 2.

Praise publicly but counsel privately.

If in doubt, just hold short. I don't really want someone crawling up my 6 while I'm dead in the water, personally. Actually, I don't really want anyone crawling up my 6 under any circumstances.

CC I'm curious if the plane in question was, say, a Mesa CRJ, would you have even made this thread?
 
Nah, there's a method to the madness on the bus in our operation. I've flown that flight number so I assume it's a bus in the scenario.

If you get a runway change, the other pilot announces that he's "heads down" and unable to help with the taxi. Change the runway, all performance data dumps, re-enter uplinked performance data, adjust and verify the runway/departure/first fix, then run the "boxed items" from the checklist.

That's IF you're a well-oiled machine. Runway changes, especially during my days in Flight Standards, is something simple, but can be the Achilles Heel of the flight deck, but we're trying to mitigate the threat/shock factor of the bus freaking out if the wrong performance data is in or missing (USAirways Accident) or taking the incorrect lateral path off the runway and creating a loss of separation.

Now with the newest 321 NEO software, ehh, it's lunch time and I'm hungry. Maybe more later.

But if a pilot says it would be two minutes and it's not, have them clear the runway. It's as simple as that.

Line check? I'd certainly debrief the crew on "why did you take the runway with a plane on a ten mile final and an unresolved performance data issue? You underestimated the amount of time you would need, tower overestimated the amount of time they had, the aircraft is traveling at probably 3-ish miles a minute, 10 miles out? Your job is to make time, hold short run the procedure, run the checklist, circle back to your copilot and see where they are operationally and mentally for the takeoff".
 
derg said:
Nah, there's a method to the madness on the bus in our operation. I've flown that flight number so I assume it's a bus in the scenario.

If you get a runway change, the other pilot announces that he's "heads down" and unable to help with the taxi. Change the runway, all performance data dumps, re-enter uplinked performance data, adjust and verify the runway/departure/first fix, then run the "boxed items" from the checklist.

That's IF you're a well-oiled machine. Runway changes, especially during my days in Flight Standards, is something simple, but can be the Achilles Heel of the flight deck, but we're trying to mitigate the threat/shock factor of the bus freaking out if the wrong performance data is in or missing (USAirways Accident) or taking the incorrect lateral path off the runway and creating a loss of separation.

Now with the newest 321 NEO software, ehh, it's lunch time and I'm hungry. Maybe more later.

But if a pilot says it would be two minutes and it's not, have them clear the runway. It's as simple as that.

Line check? I'd certainly debrief the crew on "why did you take the runway with a plane on a ten mile final and an unresolved performance data issue? You underestimated the amount of time you would need, tower overestimated the amount of time they had, the aircraft is traveling at probably 3-ish miles a minute, 10 miles out? Your job is to make time, hold short run the procedure, run the checklist, circle back to your copilot and see where they are operationally and mentally for the takeoff".
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She says to the landing traffic that traffic in position on 28R is a 737. Looking up the flight number shows a 737 from SFO to MSP.

I can understand runway changes in normal conditions. But right now at SFO, it is 28L and R and could be EITHER runway. I dunno, I think briefing both ahead of time would be way easier.

IMHO - it makes for less work approaching the runways.
 
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Same with SEA. I brief 16L but then look at the 16C numbers in case, and verablize to the FO in the Threat-Plan-Considerations brief, as a Consideration, if we get 16C, looks like flaps are the same, no engine out (same), same thrust setting, same first fix, same everything except the V speeds and the temp reduction - so I'll let you put it in, visually verify it, and then we'll just consider it briefed and run the change items. I now treat SFO the same for 28R/L only operation while 1L/R are closed.

I believe this is what the ATIS means when it says have numbers and briefed for both 28L and 28R.


I can't fault the crew for going slow to make sure all bases are covered and doing the right thing for something as critical as takeoff performance numbers (as @derg already mentioned the US Airways bus at PHL).

The main problem here is they accepted a line up and wait and only a 2 minute request to be ready. The controller clearly gave them an option if they need more time then just hold short of 28R. After it was obvious they weren't ready by minute 3, she told them to clear the runway, the Delta pilot's ego was too strong and quipped "next time give us more than 30 seconds..." That's the type A coming out.
 
Regardless of aircraft, don’t take the runway or accept a takeoff clearance, until you are ready to launch. No matter who you are, and no matter whether your aircraft has a complex FMS finger dance to change a runway, or whether some Cessna 152 with nothing to change but a mindset.
 
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Cherokee_Cruiser said:
She says to the landing traffic that traffic in position on 28R is a 737.

Looking up the flight number shows a 737 from SFO to MSP.
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I’m unsure of the runway change procedures we have on the 737.
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
She says to the landing traffic that traffic in position on 28R is a 737. Looking up the flight number shows a 737 from SFO to MSP.

I can understand runway changes in normal conditions. But right now at SFO, it is 28L and R and could be EITHER runway. I dunno, I think briefing both ahead of time would be way easier.

IMHO - it makes for less work approaching the runways.
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It's really not a matter of briefing in our operation.

There's more.

In the age of "Common Text", the procedure may be some 737-esque derivation of what I described on the bus at my shop.

ATIS can say "Be ready for 28L/28R 1L/1R and brief them all" and it literally serves as an operational "get out of jail, free" card for ATC.

I know in my current aircraft, that would be a complete 'cluster truck' in a time crunch.
 
MikeD said:
Regardless of aircraft, don’t take the runway or accept a takeoff clearance, until you are ready to launch. No matter who you are, and no matter whether your aircraft has a complex FMS finger dance to change a runway, or whether some Cessna 152 with nothing to change but a mindset.
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10 miles out, 3 miles a minute, paid by the minute! :)

>Austin_Tower_Controller ENTERS THE CHAT!
>Southwest_Airlines ENTERS THE CHAT!
>FedEx_Express ENTERS THE CHAT!

It's about to get spicy, boys!
 
I mean you all have points, but I think this ATC was trying to prove HER point. I got the real sense from the outset that she was expecting for this to happen, and that's not an adult way to operate. I agree that the crew should have declined and held short, but there's a "pushing tin" mentality at these bigger, more crowded airports (esp. domestically), and they (flight crew) probably thought that they were just trying to keep the efficiency up and stay in the good graces of the powers that be.

As to the contention that "Oh you know, it's basically the same runway, same engine out, why not punch it and go?", that is DEFINITELY peak CC. The same guy who thinks every 135 or 91 airplane is an inflight emergency the second it takes off because they're uh "all cowboys". The cognitive dissonance is leaving sonic rings, somewhere.

Where I work there's a "runway change" checklist that takes a solid minute or two to complete, and that's not including getting the new numbers in the box (even if you already requested them and they're in the ACARS) or the various other callouts/memory items and just driving the danged thing.
 
derg said:
I know in my current aircraft, that would be a complete 'cluster truck' in a time crunch.
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I get the impression that the Delta crew might have been expecting 2 minutes from the time they pulled into line up and wait. And ATC might have been thinking the 2 minute time hack started when Delta accepted the line up and wait before they had even crossed 28L to go to 28R. Hence the “more than 30 seconds” quip (that was wholly unnecessary). Even with this benefit of the doubt for both ends here, it still emphasizes not to take the runway, not to cross the hold line onto the runway, and not to accept a takeoff clearance, until completely ready to do so.
 
derg said:
I’m unsure of the runway change procedures we have on the 737.
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It’s pretty much the same…depends on what’s on the WDR, if the runway will pop up if we charge it, or if we need a TOPR, etc.

I’m pretty quick at getting things changed up, and I felt like this needed a little more time.

I get paid by the minute, so no need to rush out on the runway.
 
Boris Badenov said:
I mean you all have points, but I think this ATC was trying to prove HER point. I got the real sense from the outset that she was expecting for this to happen, and that's not an adult way to operate. I agree that the crew should have declined and held short, but there's a "pushing tin" mentality at these bigger, more crowded airports (esp. domestically), and they (flight crew) probably thought that they were just trying to keep the efficiency up and stay in the good graces of the powers that be.
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I don’t think there was any nefarious point she was trying to make necessarily, only because if that was the case, I don’t think she would’ve offered them the hold short option that she did, The crew could have, and should have, accepted that offer. Or if it wasn’t offered, requested it.
 
MikeD said:
I don’t think there was any nefarious point she was trying to make necessarily, only because if that was the case, I don’t think she would’ve offered them the hold short option that she did, The crew could have, and should have, accepted that offer. Or if it wasn’t offered, requested it.
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Agree that they should have. Disagree that she wasn't halfway hoping they'd take it and fail.
 
Also, what the tape is missing is the initial runway assignment on initial call to ground.

Ultimately, what should happen if it already hasn't, is the ALPA ATC rep needs to talk to the manager and have a conversation about the operational threats of last-minute runway changes for convenience.

The pilot should have stuck by his guns by not taking the line up and wait clearance especially after he expressed reservations.
The controller should have thought "What's the best case scenario? What's the worst case scenario? Is it worth it? IS ANYTHING ON FIRE?!" :)
 
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