Oh Delta XXVI - Delta pilot calls controller an idiot

Cherokee_Cruiser said:
That was an unsafe time in aviation. We’ve gotten better since, thanks to better CRM and a CA not being a God mentality.
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How off-brand for you. It was an extremely "unwoke" time in aviation. And while it was "unsafe" it was full of people who took risks to move your present industry to the "safe" place it currently resides. From the Jack Frye, Paul Richter, Harold Neumann, Leonard Specht era (at TWA), to my grandfather's which went from pistons to jets and developed CRM and other stuff, to the Vietnam era boomers to @derg. When my grandpa joined TWA it was roughly the same age as Facebook is today. One thing in your post that was "on brand" was simplifying a complex question and distilling it to a simple phrase ("Sky God) and using little to no nuanced thought or intellectual curiosity. Yes, the command attitude thing was a safety issue particularly when the jets occurred. But many of the pilots flew single pilot ops in the early days, co-pilot background and experience varied widely, and it worked pretty well in the 30's. Much of the "danger" was traffic control, evolution of the airplanes, increase demand, and so many other things and technology that hadn't been developed yet...but sure - blame it on the "Sky Gods" mentality...bravo and such. I'm surprised they didn't teach you this stuff at Jet University.

With that said, my grandpa WAS a Sky God.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Are you, though?
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WacoFan said:
How off-brand for you. It was an extremely "unwoke" time in aviation. And while it was "unsafe" it was full of people who took risks to move your present industry to the "safe" place it currently resides. From the Jack Frye, Paul Richter, Harold Neumann, Leonard Specht era (at TWA), to my grandfather's which went from pistons to jets and developed CRM and other stuff, to the Vietnam era boomers to @derg. When my grandpa joined TWA it was roughly the same age as Facebook is today. One thing in your post that was "on brand" was simplifying a complex question and distilling it to a simple phrase ("Sky God) and using little to no nuanced thought or intellectual curiosity. Yes, the command attitude thing was a safety issue particularly when the jets occurred. But many of the pilots flew single pilot ops in the early days, co-pilot background and experience varied widely, and it worked pretty well in the 30's. Much of the "danger" was traffic control, evolution of the airplanes, increase demand, and so many other things and technology that hadn't been developed yet...but sure - blame it on the "Sky Gods" mentality...bravo and such. I'm surprised they didn't teach you this stuff at Jet University.

With that said, my grandpa WAS a Sky God.
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Thanks for the history lesson. The crash history - and probable causes - are all out there for people to read. Yea there were crashes due to lack of EGPWS, ATC, TCAS, etc. But one thing common in those days was a lack of CRM that led to several major crashes that were completely unnecessary and 100% on the pilots. That was what I was referrring to.

And I guess thank you for your implied racism, I bow to your grandpa for paving the road for lowlives like us who couldn’t fly a plane because of the color of our skin. Or because his colleagues didn’t want to hire us. :rolleyes:
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Handle a clap back? It’s a forum, clap back all you’d / he’d like, it doesn’t really make a difference. LGA is an embarrassment by a Delta brand whose ego couldn’t handle it.
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This is a low-value post wrought with emotion and inferiority-complex.

I’m sorry you didn’t receive the validation you were looking for when sharing the original topic.
 
Accept your loss like an adult.

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Take that “L”, run a few laps, you’ll feel right as rain afterward.

Then you can resume running with the pack until you end up under someone’s else’s “paw of correction”. :)

(That’s King Charles Dog, a good educator about leadership in business)
 
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derg said:
Accept your loss like an adult.

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Take that “L”, run a few laps, you’ll feel right as rain afterward.

Then you can resume running with the pack until you end up under someone’s else’s “paw of judgement”. :)

(That’s King Charles Dog, a good educator about leadership in business)
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No thanks. But…
 

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Never worked tower so can’t speak to why LGA felt the need to sound like that.

But as a Center guy, if you got a recording of me at the end of a bad ride day when the 500th pilot is complaining about the rides that I already told him were gonna be there 5 minutes prior, I’d prob sound as close to unhelpful and uncaring as this guy. I have to imagine before this clip there’s about 50 other guys asking their sequence too.

That being said the sarcastic “sometime between now and midnight”, and “fuel planning is your problem not mine” is prob not the best look to be going out on freq with lol. Not defending bad service to the users but boy are the cracks in the NAS starting to show…. Almost like humans need more than 4 days off a month from a safety critical job to function properly and at their best.
 
Boots2Wings said:
I love how we continue these “Oh XXXX…” threads as if we are any different dependent on our paint schemes…

Something something, glass houses, something something.
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“You SouthernJets guys can’t seem to get your flaps down for takeoff” — NorthernJets pilot, after the merger

“Umm…”
 
nabbyfan said:
Never worked tower so can’t speak to why LGA felt the need to sound like that.

But as a Center guy, if you got a recording of me at the end of a bad ride day when the 500th pilot is complaining about the rides that I already told him were gonna be there 5 minutes prior, I’d prob sound as close to unhelpful and uncaring as this guy. I have to imagine before this clip there’s about 50 other guys asking their sequence too.

That being said the sarcastic “sometime between now and midnight”, and “fuel planning is your problem not mine” is prob not the best look to be going out on freq with lol. Not defending bad service to the users but boy are the cracks in the NAS starting to show…. Almost like humans need more than 4 days off a month from a safety critical job to function properly and at their best.
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100%
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Thanks for the history lesson. The crash history - and probable causes - are all out there for people to read. Yea there were crashes due to lack of EGPWS, ATC, TCAS, etc. But one thing common in those days was a lack of CRM that led to several major crashes that were completely unnecessary and 100% on the pilots. That was what I was referrring to.

And I guess thank you for your implied racism, I bow to your grandpa for paving the road for lowlives like us who couldn’t fly a plane because of the color of our skin. Or because his colleagues didn’t want to hire us. :rolleyes:
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I'm not exactly sure how I implied racism or even brought the topic up at all. I can absolutely guarantee that my grandfather flew with far more people of your religion and skin tone than you have (TWA loaned him to Saudi Arabian Airlines for 1967-69 as "General Manager" which was basically a cross between Chief Pilot, head f hiring and training, aircraft procurement, and the highest position in the airline not held by the Royal family).

All that aside, you again seem to double down on your painfully simplistic view that the lack of CRM was THE cause of the majority of air disasters in the pre-2001 dark ages of aeronautical safety. Not the rapidly changing aircraft, technology, the increased demand for air travel, the continual evolution of ATC, the regulatory framework ( the FAA wasn't created until 1959) and how CRM would evolve with all of those inputs. When do you think CRM (as a concept if not by name) started to be discussed? Would "the early 1960's" shock you? Just Saturday was the anniversary of something you'd have labeled as "Oh Delta" - the crash of Delta FL 191 at DFW. Did that have more to do with CRM or with the lack of Doppler radar and an incomplete knowledge of windshear/microbursts? Sticking to a theme with another Fl 191 - was AA 191 at ORD in May 1979 a CRM crash? How about TWA 800? How about some mid-airs?
 
nabbyfan said:
Not defending bad service to the users but boy are the cracks in the NAS starting to show…. Almost like humans need more than 4 days off a month from a safety critical job to function properly and at their best.
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I’ve said it in another thread, but the Swiss Cheese Model can only prevent so much. We are lining up for an accident of epic proportions and it’s really going to suck saying I told you so after a lot of fatalities.

Everyone see the cracks, and no one with any power is doing anything that will create a substantial impact to prevent the issue.
 
WacoFan said:
I'm not exactly sure how I implied racism or even brought the topic up at all. I can absolutely guarantee that my grandfather flew with far more people of your religion and skin tone than you have (TWA loaned him to Saudi Arabian Airlines for 1967-69 as "General Manager" which was basically a cross between Chief Pilot, head f hiring and training, aircraft procurement, and the highest position in the airline not held by the Royal family).

All that aside, you again seem to double down on your painfully simplistic view that the lack of CRM was THE cause of the majority of air disasters in the pre-2001 dark ages of aeronautical safety. Not the rapidly changing aircraft, technology, the increased demand for air travel, the continual evolution of ATC, the regulatory framework ( the FAA wasn't created until 1959) and how CRM would evolve with all of those inputs. When do you think CRM (as a concept if not by name) started to be discussed? Would "the early 1960's" shock you? Just Saturday was the anniversary of something you'd have labeled as "Oh Delta" - the crash of Delta FL 191 at DFW. Did that have more to do with CRM or with the lack of Doppler radar and an incomplete knowledge of windshear/microbursts? Sticking to a theme with another Fl 191 - was AA 191 at ORD in May 1979 a CRM crash? How about TWA 800? How about some mid-airs?
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He’ll just reply with him being a moose lamb, or lamb moose or whatever the • he calls it. Either way, some lamb chops sound really good right now.
 
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