Oh, American...

SurferLucas said:
Being a good FO doesn't equal being a doormat. Believe it or not, there are some Captains out there that like to see how far they can push someone, and sometimes throwing it back at them works wonders. We had two at QX that were both just raging hemeroids to fly with (both were BOI based).

It's really easy to just listen on freq, and see what everyone else is reporting. In fact, in most center's...when you check on, they tell you what the rides are like. You know why they do this...to stop everyone clogging up the frequency with "how are the rides".

Stop making mountains out of mole hills, and you'll be less likely to end up like Todd.
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While there are undoubtedly some jerks out there, I think most of the Captains who push FOs are doing that intentionally, hoping that the FO will stand strong. I think what you might be missing is that those Captains are not doing that to be jerks, but rather, they are looking for the FO to push back confidently and competently. If you watch carefully, you might even see them grin and nod just a bit when the FO does.

My first Captain was considered a total ass by many folks who didn't last. To those of us who grokked what he was asking of us, he was one of the greatest mentors ever. We all learned much and advanced beyond our expectations... because that's where he pushed us.
 
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form810 said:
While there are undoubtedly some jerks out there, I think most of the Captains who push FOs are doing that intentionally, hoping that the FO will stand strong. I think what you might be missing is that those Captains are not doing that to be jerks, but rather, they are looking for the FO to push back confidently and competently. If you watch carefully, you might even see them grin and nod just a bit when the FO does.
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Yea...not even close. I've got a great deal of experience teaching/mentoring in the 121 world, and this wasn't "tough love/hard coaching" mentoring. This was being an asshat because that person was an asshat. We joke about "My teaching style is fear, intimidation and ridicule", but there are guys at my current shop that think it's a proper way to teach. @derg and others can confirm this for you.
 
SurferLucas said:
Yea...not even close. I've got a great deal of experience teaching/mentoring in the 121 world, and this wasn't "tough love/hard coaching" mentoring. This was being an asshat because that person was an asshat. We joke about "My teaching style is fear, intimidation and ridicule", but there are guys at my current shop that think it's a proper way to teach. @derg and others can confirm this for you.
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Fair enough. Like I said, those folks are out there, too.

Aslo, re: "not even close": Personal anecdotes, while oft' riveting, don't hold much truck in comparison to stats.
 
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phill1174 said:
This is very well put. I flew what we call a “FO only line” a few months ago. Basically a line where you fly with out of base CA’s. Long story short this guy did the most to try to elicit a reaction IMO. It got to the point where I just about asked him if he wanted to land the airplane. My motto has always been “the checks cash regardless of how you want me to do it” but he was excessive. He even said after the trip “I know you think I’m an a hole”. If I had to fly the whole bid period with him I probably would’ve called out for the rest of it. Needless to say that and some other craziness that bid period steered me away from those lines and flying out of base.
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If he's a domestic guy, I'm pretty sure I know who you're talking about. He is notorious for referring to himself as an ahole. That's why I don't bid base flying.
 
form810 said:
When I was in navy jet skool, most folks had 4 (• begins with a "W"), man.

What the heck, the W word is verbotten here? You can't use an alternative word for prostitute, fille de joie, call girl, lady of the night, chippy, doxy, drab, quean or wench on here? Huh?

Would someone please explain to me how that ONE descriptor is profane, while all the rest are just fine? Or are we now banning entire concepts? If we are, we're gonna have to add a lot more nouns to our "banned" list, eh.
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@derg
 
form810 said:
While there are undoubtedly some jerks out there, I think most of the Captains who push FOs are doing that intentionally, hoping that the FO will stand strong. I think what you might be missing is that those Captains are not doing that to be jerks, but rather, they are looking for the FO to push back confidently and competently. If you watch carefully, you might even see them grin and nod just a bit when the FO does.

My first Captain was considered a total ass by many folks who didn't last. To those of us who grokked what he was asking of us, he was one of the greatest mentors ever. We all learned much and advanced beyond our expectations... because that's where he pushed us.
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That is playground nonsense that is normal for adolescent children, but absolutely unacceptable from an adult.
 
form810 said:
While there are undoubtedly some jerks out there, I think most of the Captains who push FOs are doing that intentionally, hoping that the FO will stand strong. I think what you might be missing is that those Captains are not doing that to be jerks, but rather, they are looking for the FO to push back confidently and competently. If you watch carefully, you might even see them grin and nod just a bit when the FO does.

My first Captain was considered a total ass by many folks who didn't last. To those of us who grokked what he was asking of us, he was one of the greatest mentors ever. We all learned much and advanced beyond our expectations... because that's where he pushed us.
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During the bad old days, I was forced to reserve on the DC-9 with an obnoxious commute. I was home maybe 6 full days a month. So I get called out one day and I'm flying with this guy who has a really low number. So I ask if he bid reserve intentionally. He says no he's not on reserve, and lets me know that he lives next to the airport, and scheduling has his number when they need favors. I told him that not only was that not part of the contract, but hey, you know we have 675 guys and gals on furlough.

"I don't care anything about that".

This guy was youngish, fit, trim, wore a wife beater t-shirt and had a porno stache to complete the ensem. Didn't fit the typical image of a person that was wired that way. Clearly some people are going to run their program, and you're not going to change their behavior. Any attempt will make them dig in harder, and they'll actually revel in it.

It was a quiet leg.
 
Richman said:
During the bad old days, I was forced to reserve on the DC-9 with an obnoxious commute. I was home maybe 6 full days a month. So I get called out one day and I'm flying with this guy who has a really low number. So I ask if he bid reserve intentionally. He says no he's not on reserve, and lets me know that he lives next to the airport, and scheduling has his number when they need favors. I told him that not only was that not part of the contract, but hey, you know we have 675 guys and gals on furlough.

"I don't care anything about that".

This guy was youngish, fit, trim, wore a wife beater t-shirt and had a porno stache to complete the ensem. Didn't fit the typical image of a person that was wired that way. Clearly some people are going to run their program, and you're not going to change their behavior. Any attempt will make them dig in harder, and they'll actually revel in it.

It was a quiet leg.
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Bunch of pilots on furlough.

“But look at all this open time there is available!! I can credit 100+ hours!”
 
MikeD said:
Bunch of pilots on furlough.

“But look at all this open time there is available!! I can credit 100+ hours!”
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That happened at our place during the COVID times. Line pilots and the union both tried to counsel this person, but they just kept on picking up.
 
MikeD said:
Bunch of pilots on furlough.

“But look at all this open time there is available!! I can credit 100+ hours!”
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I've found during my career that no amount of "kink shaming" will deter these folks. They are running their own program, and the more you try to convince them, the more they dig in. They know they can run right up to crossing a picket line, but as long as they don't cross, they'll be good. That said, and I am in NO way justifying their actions, but at least they're doing it for the money. There are others that are just as toxic doing similar things "for the good of the company", and they're 100x worse.

It is interesting, though, that when people in that last group find themselves in a pinch, and their company patrons ditch them, they suddenly find religion. Hell hath no fury like a woman scored, or a company man set adrift.
 
roundout said:
That happened at our place during the COVID times. Line pilots and the union both tried to counsel this person, but they just kept on picking up.
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Richman said:
I've found during my career that no amount of "kink shaming" will deter these folks. They are running their own program, and the more you try to convince them, the more they dig in. They know they can run right up to crossing a picket line, but as long as they don't cross, they'll be good. That said, and I am in NO way justifying their actions, but at least they're doing it for the money. There are others that are just as toxic doing similar things "for the good of the company", and they're 100x worse.

It is interesting, though, that when people in that last group find themselves in a pinch, and their company patrons ditch them, they suddenly find religion. Hell hath no fury like a woman scored, or a company man set adrift.
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These kinds of pilots, are they breaking contractual policy? Or are they just being severely unethical and selfish? There’s no type of union censure, or similar, they can get?
 
MikeD said:
These kinds of pilots, are they breaking contractual policy? Or are they just being severely unethical and selfish? There’s no type of union censure, or similar, they can get?
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Volunteering for flight outside the trip assignment sequence is an abrogation of the contract. Back in the day, they'd get fined by the union by operating outside the contract.
 
MikeD said:
These kinds of pilots, are they breaking contractual policy? Or are they just being severely unethical and selfish? There’s no type of union censure, or similar, they can get?
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In the case of picking up when people are on furlough, the latter. Nothing says you can’t do this, except good karma, rules which should’ve been learned in kindergarten, etc..

The other, putting yourself on the crew scheduling Christmas card list, it depends on the CBA. At the place I work, it used to be junior assignment and calling in “willing to help.” Because that system has obvious flaws, we went away from that to a first come-first serve computer based system in our new contract. so no more calling in “willing to help.”
 
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MikeD said:
These kinds of pilots, are they breaking contractual policy? Or are they just being severely unethical and selfish? There’s no type of union censure, or similar, they can get?
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Here, we have a first come first served pick up system, with the exception of a few hour window before a trips departure time when people can be put on a list by request (the day prior) for those assignments.

Where the shenanigans still happen is when a trip gets dropped in to open time, it normally triggers a text message alert. The problem is a system sending out messages to most pilots in a category can take a while and 99% of the time, by the time you get the text and log in, the trip is long gone, picked up by somebody else who happened to be logged in already working on their schedule.

Because of this, there are guys that live on the trip trading system. They are the ones checking their phones all the way out to the runway, and the ones turning their phones on as we taxi in (no wifi on the planes yet), and then scrolling through the open time list all the way to the van and then on the ride to the hotel.

The problem guys though are the ones that you never see on their phones but seem to get every juicy charter trip that drops. These guys have an in with scheduling and get a heads up (often to the minute) of when one of these trips will go in to open time, so they can be logged in, ready to click.
 
EIR said:
If he's a domestic guy, I'm pretty sure I know who you're talking about. He is notorious for referring to himself as an ahole. That's why I don't bid base flying.
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I just smiled and walked off. I hate to give people the satisfaction. Every time I see him he’s all smiles and remembers details about me outside of work.
 
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derg said:
Are we going to go all "Sharks…. Jets…." now? :)
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shark-papers.png
 
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