% of ACPP that go onto Instruct

[ QUOTE ]
So I gather the following:

You can have less than half a brain and complete the pro course,

and you only need half a brain to instruct at Ari Ben

[/ QUOTE ]

I was being sarcastic...you people know what I mean, there is people out there who somehow manage to get their ratings at any flight school that have no business teaching or flying anyone.
tongue.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]

Yup. Sounds like Cohen keeps the standards marginally higher than the regionals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah. RPM, I think the point is in orbit right now.

I too was playing tongue-in-cheek. As an ATP grad, instructor and current regional airline pilot, I enjoy watching the endless debate of ATP or Ari-B.

IT DOESN'T MATTER ONE IOTA! I am the only ATPer at the airline I work for hired in recent memory. I'm happy here, well paid, great contract, and it doesn't matter a wet slap where I got my ratings. Know why? Because fresh outta flight school does not equate to a darned bit of experience, no matter where you get it. Don't believe me? Ask an IOE captain. I was fortunate enough to have had the experience of being in the flight levels, solo, and wondering "Oh, [censored]. What do I do now?" by the time I got to the airline. By the time I crossed 1000 hours, I still had NOTHING. Several abnormals, one real emergency, five or six partial panel NDB approaches to minima, partial panel ITOs (after rotation).... in and out of IAH and all of it solo... and not one bit of it came from my training***. Okay, the partial panel stuff- I'll admit that sitting on my can at night in the AST300 doing them, AS AN INSTRUCTOR, made my instrument skills pretty darned good. I am thrilled to death that I was lucky enough to attend and instruct for such a great company, and still believe in what they do.

The only question that must be answered is, "Am I, the spender of the money, happy with the school I'm spending it at?" That's all. Whose jersey you wear and root for doesn't land the plane or give the captain a warm fuzzy now that everything's alright, since ya went to Ari Ben and all. ( Why nobody gets up here and talks more about SkyMates is really interesting to me, AMOF. Another good outfit with good instructors...)

Don't get violated, don't get perished, don't bend metal. Equal number of takeoffs and landings, the ability to use the plane again when you're done, play well with others.

That, and floss. Trust me. Had to quit a job because I didn't. Long story.

*** Ya know, that's not accurate. I went to a big simulator place to get smart on the P-Baron, and went to another big simulator place to get smart on a PC12 and the Cheyenne. Without THAT training, my posterior wouldn't be herior today. I do advocate as much multiengine experience as possible- especially instruction.

But the progression from wet-ink tickets to valuable player in the right or left seat is a series of incidents that you were clever enough to get through.

-- these are the opinions of a lunatic beach bum with a flying problem, not of any flight school, airline, religion or political party.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, for two whole students, and then you're on your own...

[/ QUOTE ]

Did an ATP rep tell you that? Let's just cut that crap right now, because you don't know what you're talking about.

Besides, I would much rather get an opportunity to instruct than to not even get a chance like most ATP grads.

Just to make it clear, Ari's guys are getting hired at the same pace ATP's are, so lets get past that.

They're both good schools, we know that. And Ari's cheaper! Saved me over $12,000.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, for two whole students, and then you're on your own...

[/ QUOTE ]

Did an ATP rep tell you that? Let's just cut that crap right now, because you don't know what you're talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Save me the cut the crap speech and read Ari's website. ALL they guarantee you is two students upon graduation, two, period! Sure, they tell you that so long as you do ok that they'll keep you, but do the math. If EVERY Ari-ben grad gets a job instructing then they would have a student to teacher ratio of one to one.

Now let me be clear here, I'm NOT knocking Ari-Ben. I looked into them, and think they're a great outfit. They're very DIFFERENT, not better or worse, than ATP. I chose ATP because I'm 34 and time is of the essence. I want to be done in 90 days, not 6-12 months. Also, my wife and I live in Atlanta and I'd prefer to train where I can still see her. Further, upon graduation I'm confident enough in my personality and flying skills that I feel I will get hired. If not, fine, I'll go to other flight schools and find a job. BUT, save me the load of crap about Ari guaranteeing you a job and go back and read the writing. They guarantee you two students and nothing more.

And while you're at it, if you think ATP is such a rip-off, there's an Ari-Ben section on this board, why do you spend so much time at ATP?

[ QUOTE ]
Besides, I would much rather get an opportunity to instruct than to not even get a chance like most ATP grads.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now who's posting crap? If you've read the above posts, 7 out of 10 who applied for jobs got hired in the same month. The fact is, most of the grads who want to work for ATP get to. Some it takes a month or two to get hired, but most do. I suspect that the ones that don't, there was a reason. They've basically got 90 days to interview you, and we all know people we wouldn't hire after being around them 90 days.

[ QUOTE ]
Just to make it clear, Ari's guys are getting hired at the same pace ATP's are, so lets get past that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Show me where anyone said Ari's guys don't get hired? I've said before and I'll say it again, Ari-Ben is a good school. Not better or worse than ATP, just different. You don't see me over on the Ari-Ben board bashing them, do you?

[ QUOTE ]
They're both good schools, we know that. And Ari's cheaper! Saved me over $12,000.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, IMHO, you get what you pay for.
wink.gif


I'm just sick of seeing posts in the ATP section trying to play down the school. It's a great outfit that delivers exactly what it says it will, and they don't make empty promises they can't keep. I'm sure Ari-Ben is also a good school. Both have their pros and cons, but Ari does NOT guarantee their grads a job. And the pay definitely isn't any better than ATP, you get paid by the flight hour, 0 for ground instruction, and NO deals on housing, you're on your own there, too. I've read their board extensively, they don't make any more than ATP instructors and have much higher living expenses.

Peace out,
Heath
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They're both good schools, we know that. And Ari's cheaper! Saved me over $12,000.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, IMHO, you get what you pay for.
wink.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, yes and no. For the extra $8k, ATP buys you 60 fewer flight hours than Ari-Ben. A lot of what you're paying for with ATP is the marketing machine--the full-color ads in all the magazines, the logo'd polo shirts and backpack, the company Citation. None of which will get you hired over someone with more flight experience than you.

[ QUOTE ]
Now who's posting crap? If you've read the above posts, 7 out of 10 who applied for jobs got hired in the same month. The fact is, most of the grads who want to work for ATP get to. Some it takes a month or two to get hired, but most do.

[/ QUOTE ]

That post should've carried a "results not typical, your mileage may vary" disclaimer in fine print; I think everyone knows that wasn't a typical month. All it takes is a quick perusal of ATP's instructor hiring page and realize that they don't hire 70% of their graduates. The math just doesn't work.
 
[ QUOTE ]
ALL they guarantee you is two students upon graduation, two, period! Sure, they tell you that so long as you do ok that they'll keep you, but do the math. If EVERY Ari-ben grad gets a job instructing then they would have a student to teacher ratio of one to one.



[/ QUOTE ]

the thing is...most people don't want to stay and instruct at the Aviator, they are happy with the 200 multi hours they get and go back home to their family for instructing jobs they have lined up. From my time at the aviator I would say only about 1 in 5 want to stay and instruct, thats why the #'s work out. I still have not met or spoken to 1 single person here who was not offered a job if they wanted it.

I wouldn't say the living expenses are higher either...most people pay 2-3 hundred a month for a place in Vero Beach with other instructors or they have the opportunity to stay in the housing at a discounted rate. Actually some guys rent out the rooms in their rental houses to timebuilders for $30 a night and live rent free!
cool.gif
The pay works out to be about the same as ATP...we get 15 @ hour and avg. 80-110 hrs a month. ATP gets what, $1,000 or 1,200 salary....I can't remember, plus a checkride pass bonus.

....just trying to clear things up.
insane.gif
 
Look, and I'm not saying ATP is a bad school. It's great that ATP works for you, but for a 19 year old in my position with a year of college under his belt, Ari was a great fit. Get my training, learn, instruct for a year...year a anf a half until I'm 21, hope to have over 1000 multi and go find a job. Plus it saved me 12k that could have been 30k by the time I payed it off. Which could be put to great use towards a marketing degree.

I don't have any right to talk about ATP because I'm not a student and have only visited and wasn't impressed by their operations...however, I visited Ari and there really wasn't anything there that impressed me to the point of "Holy Sh*it, this is effin' amazing". Just had more advantages than ATP. But again, everyone has their own fit. Ari was/is mine...

As for the comparison to the 90-day fast track...Ari Ben can get you done in the same time or quicker if you wanted to. The fact of the matter is Ari and ATP are all straight shooters...simple as that. They don't guarentee you anything. Except cheap multi...

Ari does virtually ''guarentee'' you a job...and Ari told me straight up "It's your job to lose". But to say "You get two students and then you're on your own" is just ignorance.

If you don't suceed as an instructor you probably shouldn't be flying for a career anyways. At least Ari gives you a shot...

Out of the 6 ATP 90-day/10-month grads I know, none of them have been offered a job to instruct.

That makes it 7/16...or 44%..still a little too high for the actual percentage.

Ari and ATP are great. No arguing that. I will go back to the Ari-Ben forum.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Ari and ATP are great. No arguing that. I will go back to the Ari-Ben forum.

[/ QUOTE ] Everyone is welcome here... Hang around a bit... Future students/aviators need to see and hear perspectives from many different angles (regardless of the "forum" name).

We all seem to get into trouble when we claim.... "Ours is best! Theirs sucks!" We seem to get along best when we simply post our experiences... with the "individual results may vary" caviot that Aloft mentioned earlier.

Keep flying... and keep your experiences posted...
smile.gif


Bob
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They're both good schools, we know that. And Ari's cheaper! Saved me over $12,000.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, IMHO, you get what you pay for.
wink.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, yes and no. For the extra $8k, ATP buys you 60 fewer flight hours than Ari-Ben. A lot of what you're paying for with ATP is the marketing machine--the full-color ads in all the magazines, the logo'd polo shirts and backpack, the company Citation. None of which will get you hired over someone with more flight experience than you.

[/ QUOTE ]

And nicer, newer, better maintained aircraft, cross-country trips that are truly cross-country, including housing and transportation expenses at the destinations.

Again, though, this all boils down to personal needs and preferences and what each person places value on. As I've said, neither's better or worse, they're just different. And as you pointed out, when you've got the hours to get hired, students from both schools are on equal footing. I'm just confident that I'll get there faster at ATP and speed is worth a premium for me, given my age and situation. For some here, I can totally understand the decision to go with Ari or Skymates. I'd probably choose one of them myself under different circumstances.

[ QUOTE ]
Now who's posting crap? If you've read the above posts, 7 out of 10 who applied for jobs got hired in the same month. The fact is, most of the grads who want to work for ATP get to. Some it takes a month or two to get hired, but most do.

[/ QUOTE ]

That post should've carried a "results not typical, your mileage may vary" disclaimer in fine print; I think everyone knows that wasn't a typical month. All it takes is a quick perusal of ATP's instructor hiring page and realize that they don't hire 70% of their graduates. The math just doesn't work.

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't say they hired 70% of their grads, but rather 70% of the grads *that applied for jobs* last month. And I find that to be typical. Just as was posted about many not seeking employment at Ari for various reasons, the same is common at ATP. Roughly half of the grads don't apply to work here for their own reasons.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Look, and I'm not saying ATP is a bad school. It's great that ATP works for you, but for a 19 year old in my position with a year of college under his belt, Ari was a great fit. Get my training, learn, instruct for a year...year a anf a half until I'm 21, hope to have over 1000 multi and go find a job. Plus it saved me 12k that could have been 30k by the time I payed it off. Which could be put to great use towards a marketing degree.

I don't have any right to talk about ATP because I'm not a student and have only visited and wasn't impressed by their operations...however, I visited Ari and there really wasn't anything there that impressed me to the point of "Holy Sh*it, this is effin' amazing". Just had more advantages than ATP. But again, everyone has their own fit. Ari was/is mine...

As for the comparison to the 90-day fast track...Ari Ben can get you done in the same time or quicker if you wanted to. The fact of the matter is Ari and ATP are all straight shooters...simple as that. They don't guarentee you anything. Except cheap multi...

Ari does virtually ''guarentee'' you a job...and Ari told me straight up "It's your job to lose". But to say "You get two students and then you're on your own" is just ignorance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not ignorance, its all they guarantee. But just as with ATP, the job is usually yours to lose. The operative word is usually. Let another 9/11 happen in the middle of your training and the influx of new students dry up and we'll both be here in a few months complaining that we can't find a CFI job. Which is my point, Ari gives you no more guarantee of a job than ATP.

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't suceed as an instructor you probably shouldn't be flying for a career anyways. At least Ari gives you a shot...

Out of the 6 ATP 90-day/10-month grads I know, none of them have been offered a job to instruct.

That makes it 7/16...or 44%..still a little too high for the actual percentage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anectdotal numbers. To say that they hire less than 44% is complete bunk. I'm not saying that they hire everyone, they don't. But this is just not true and what is aggravating me about your posting. Don't post things about which you don't know.

[ QUOTE ]
Ari and ATP are great. No arguing that. I will go back to the Ari-Ben forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're welcome here as much as anyone. It just seems that your main goal in being here is to post maliciously about ATP while advertising your viewed merits of Ari. Leave that stuff in the Ari-Ben forum and you'll receive no flack from me.

Peace,
Heath
 
[ QUOTE ]
Which is my point, Ari gives you no more guarantee of a job than ATP.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really want to get sucked into this debate, however.....
According to my research I don't think that this part is true (I could be wrong)
The way I understood it was that Ari-Ben will give you 2 students and see what kind of instructor you are. Sounds like a guaranteed chance to me.
Whereas ATP may not even let you back into their organization to see what kind of instructor you are. Sounds to me like you could have no chance at all there if they do not need instructors.......
I think that even if I only had a chance to instruct only few students to begin with, I would rather have that and have my foot in the door waiting for more students either through increased enrollment or hopefully CFI's getting hired by regionals.
laugh.gif
Rather than having potentially no Job at all at the school I went to.
Just my 2 cents
smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Which is my point, Ari gives you no more guarantee of a job than ATP.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really want to get sucked into this debate, however.....
According to my research I don't think that this part is true (I could be wrong)
The way I understood it was that Ari-Ben will give you 2 students and see what kind of instructor you are. Sounds like a guaranteed chance to me.
Whereas ATP may not even let you back into their organization to see what kind of instructor you are. Sounds to me like you could have no chance at all there if they do not need instructors.......
I think that even if I only had a chance to instruct only few students to begin with, I would rather have that and have my foot in the door waiting for more students either through increased enrollment or hopefully CFI's getting hired by regionals.
laugh.gif
Rather than having potentially no Job at all at the school I went to.
Just my 2 cents
smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

that is correct, and a good way to put it...the Aviator gives you a "guaranteed opportunity to prove yourself" as an instructor.
 
You know, not taking sides or anything, I always find it sort of ironic how the biggest defenders of a program (not just in this case) are the ones who have either just started or aren't even enrolled yet. Nothing against ya'll. You made the choice the best suites you. Just understand that their may be a better choice FOR SOMEBODY ELSE and it is ok for them to make that choice.

Ethan (who is very happy with the choice he made
tongue.gif
)
 
[ QUOTE ]
You made the choice the best suites you. Just understand that their may be a better choice FOR SOMEBODY ELSE and it is ok for them to make that choice.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well said, I would agree 100%.....
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Which is my point, Ari gives you no more guarantee of a job than ATP.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really want to get sucked into this debate, however.....
According to my research I don't think that this part is true (I could be wrong)
The way I understood it was that Ari-Ben will give you 2 students and see what kind of instructor you are. Sounds like a guaranteed chance to me.
Whereas ATP may not even let you back into their organization to see what kind of instructor you are. Sounds to me like you could have no chance at all there if they do not need instructors.......

[/ QUOTE ]

So if Ari has low enrollment and is over-staffed with instructors, why do you feel that this chance is any better than you're chance with ATP? That's my point. I can prove myself to ATP during my 90 days there. That won't make them need an instructor if they're over-staffed at the time. Same is true with Ari. If they simply have no need for more instructors, they have no obligation to hire you after your two students. The whole point is, that's NOT a guaranteed job, its a guaranteed two students.

Is it better/worse? No, just different. But it shouldn't be represented as something its not. Its not a guaranteed job.

Peace,
Heath
 
[ QUOTE ]
The whole point is, that's NOT a guaranteed job, its a guaranteed two students.

Its not a guaranteed job.


[/ QUOTE ]

Stop trying to argue this point. What exactly are instructors doing with the two students - holding their hands? If they're getting a paycheck its a JOB. Nuff said.

ATP is a good outfit, they do what they do well (i.e. pilot factory). A former student of mine is currently there instructing and he'll most likely beat me to the regionals. He had to wait 3 months I believe before he was hired. Also, I asked him what the hire-on rate was and he quoted "right around 25%" but didn't elaborate if that was percentage of applications to work there or the percentage of people going through the career program as a whole.

And as far as ATP Xcty flights being "real" Xcty's, I would tend to disagree with that statement. The only difference flying from coast to coast is what L-Chart you use. Ari is located in FLA, and flying xcty there (even 100 miles) can be an eye opening experience in the summer time. I dodged more weather there in any 2 week period in the summers than I have in 6 months flying in the southwest US.

~wheelsup
 
The only thing that is a downer about ATP's X-C's are that YOU pay THEM to fly their aircraft where they tell you to so they can be maintenenced. So basically, they're earning money while you ferry around their equipment. But from what I hear they're fun.

At Ari you get to fly wherever you want. Simple as that. If you want to go to the Bahamas for the day, by all means you can. And as for the comment about "better maintained airplanes"....

You REALLY haven't visited Ari, have you? I would say Ari's are the same, if not better maintained than ATPs. They're really good about keeping their airplanes in the air, especially considering how much they're in the air.

Keep us posted on your progress though, I am enjoying reading them.
 
[ QUOTE ]
You REALLY haven't visited Ari, have you? I would say Ari's are the same, if not better maintained than ATPs. They're really good about keeping their airplanes in the air, especially considering how much they're in the air.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you guys quit throwing • statements like this out there? None of you know know a thing about the other's maintenance facility. You are neither qualified nor informed enough to say who's maintenance is better.
[ QUOTE ]
If you want to go to the Bahamas for the day, by all means you can.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's sweet. I wish we could swing that at ATP.
[ QUOTE ]
The only thing that is a downer about ATP's X-C's are that YOU pay THEM to fly their aircraft where they tell you to so they can be maintenenced.

[/ QUOTE ]
Take it from someone who has not only started their training with their beloved XXX flight school but has also completed the ATP XC phase, it's no downer at all. Flying from region to region in the US is an awesome experience.
 
I think all XC flying is great. I have visited both schools and maintenence facilities, and there wasn't anything wrong with either of them. But to say that ATP's are better maintained is quite a statement to be throwing around if you haven't visited.

I like ATP, little dissapointed in some of their operations, but overall it all comes down to the ticket. Does not matter where you got it...all that matters is that you have it. But I respect ATP students, because they didnt fall for the PanAm/RAA/DCA bull.

We all love multi!
 
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