OEI and TERPS

So, how should I meet the regs and safely depart? Walk me through the procedure that I should use.
 
The majority of airports, it is only necessary to climb to the MSA associated with an RNAV (GPS) approach for the airport in question. Most of the time a climb to 1000 to 1500 ft above airport elevation will be necessary to maneuver within one of the two MSA altitudes in the direction of departure (there can only be four MS quadrants) to return overhead the airport to hold.

Even the most basic straight out EO analysis will allow this to happen if terrain is not a factor in the area. IF terrain is a factor, then most likely the vendor will provide a suitable EO procedure to the enroute environment or to a holding pattern as you describe.

Rich

RNAV IAPs have only one MSA. Note airport elevation and the MSA at F70. (French Vally, CA):

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0910/06941R18.PDF
 
So, how should I meet the regs and safely depart? Walk me through the procedure that I should use.

Are you a commercial operator?

Then, you need to apply your aircraft's OEI performance data to the obstacle environment in the vicinity of the airport using AC 90-121 and the best available topographical and structural obstacle data available.

The airlines actually conduct surveys close to the runway ends to identify close-in, low structural obstacles. I:24,000 USGS topo maps serve the best beyond the close-in survey.

Some believe the takeoff flight path ends at 1,500 feet, afe, and that is true at flat-land airports. But, at a mountain airport the takeoff flight path doesn't end until you can achieve OEI en route flight sufficient to either return to the airport and join a published feeder route or initial approach segment or proceed to join a Victor Airway. An option is to maintain OEI en route requirements off airways using RNAV or within the operational service volume of ground-based nav aids. (121.191 in the case of Part 121 operators.)

This is a difficult task, which is way airlines have sophisticated performance engineering departments. Companies like Jeppesen and APG do a decent job, but not nearly to the extent airlines such as Delta do.
 
aterpster

Did the MSA thing for RNAV approaches change recently? I could very well be losing my mind, slowly, but I seem to remember there used to be MSA quadrants centered on the 2 or 3 IAF's?


Polar

Very cool stuff, do you per chance have and example of two approach plates of how you would do this?
 
aterpster

Did the MSA thing for RNAV approaches change recently? I could very well be losing my mind, slowly, but I seem to remember there used to be MSA quadrants centered on the 2 or 3 IAF's?


Polar

Very cool stuff, do you per chance have and example of two approach plates of how you would do this?

I think you might be thinking of TAA RNAV IAPs. The TAAs are operational quadrants unlike MSAs. KPRC RNAV 21L is one that comes to mind. TAA RNAV IAPs don't have MSAs because of the TAA areas. On other RNAV IAPs, the MSA is centered on the runway threshold.

As to an example of the topo stuff, I am not sure what you are looking for.
 
TAA's that's it! Thank you. I think the mind is the first thing to go when you get older...
 
Polar

Very cool stuff, do you per chance have and example of two approach plates of how you would do this?

I'm going to work tomorrow, so I should get to it. If I forget, send me a PM.

Could you help me with your question? Do you want examples of when we'd do this? Or do you want to see an approach plate where we'd need to do an overlay?
 
I'm going to work tomorrow, so I should get to it. If I forget, send me a PM.

Could you help me with your question? Do you want examples of when we'd do this? Or do you want to see an approach plate where we'd need to do an overlay?


If you have the time and it isn't a hughe deal, both would be great. I have a picture in my head what you do, but I would like to see if I am correct.

Thank you! :beer:
 
If you have the time and it isn't a hughe deal, both would be great. I have a picture in my head what you do, but I would like to see if I am correct.

Thank you! :beer:

It's not a huge deal, and it's super easy, so you're probably over thinking it.

I'm at best an end-user, so the engineering types of our bunch (seagull, aterpster, richjb and tgrayson) could explain the hows and whys much better.

Kids and wife are napping, so I'll see if I can get it done.
 
Don't know if this helps or confuses the issue, but I think it is worth a look for those of us trying to nail this down.

http://video.flyapg.com/video2/index.html

It's a presentation on runway analysis by Roger Hemphill of APG (Aircraft Performance Group).

Note that there is about 10 seconds of black at the start of the video, so don't think that it's not running at first, be patient:)
 
If you have the time and it isn't a hughe deal, both would be great. I have a picture in my head what you do, but I would like to see if I am correct.

Thank you! :beer:

Note: My operator is specifically approved for this procedure via OpSpecs and is trained in this procedure. This is only for discussion and you shouldn't try this at home. Fly safe and smart out there!!!

So we'll use GRR for this example.

Let's say we get the VOR17, but only have the RNAV 17 in the FMS data base. We'll compare the VOR17 plate to the the RNAV 17 we have in the box.

The plan view comes out the the same course. So we can modify the waypoints out side the final fix, and change the altitude constraints. On the missed you can see 2 obvious changes, as there is an additional fix on the missed, so that would be deleted, and the 4nm hold would be changed to the standard hold per the procedure.

Obviously, with the rapid propogation of RNAV approaches in the states, it's difficult for me to find an airport we fly into that would be much of an issue. However, outside the US, there are alot of places that you'll do an NDB, but since we don't have the NDB plates, we would have to modify the RNAV.

This is rudimentary, and purposely so, as I don't want all our tricks out there, as to not encourage this unless you have the proper training.

If you ahave more questions or whatever, I'd be happy to answer them in a more private manner.

Have fun out there!!
 

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