NWA May Go Bankrupt Without Labor Concessions

Haven't you learned by now, Aloft?

Some animals are more equal than others.

It doesn't matter if it's the twelfth century and we're talking about royalty or if we're talking about societies like the one we live in.

Some people have the assets. They make the rules to benefit themselves and their fellow people at the top.
 
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The 80 percent load factors we are seeing right now are putting a big strain on the system. Raise fares, get rid of some demand, and not only will you remove some of that strain, but you will make money on the tickets.

Seems logical to me. Which is why they won't do it.

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Agree. I was just reading that only about a third of available airline seats are on LCCs right now. If the legacies would stand together and raise fares enough to make money then the discount airlines could buy as many Boeings and Airbuses as they could get their hands on and finish the majors off once and for all. We got ourselves a plan!
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So let me see if I've got your solution down right.

Let's keep on selling tickets at prices we can't make money on.

Which is sillier? Trying it my way, and saying, okay, we may lose some of the air greyhound types but at least we'll actually make money on those tickets we do sell.

Or doing it your way, which results in selling lots of tickets at a loss?
 
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So let me see if I've got your solution down right.

Let's keep on selling tickets at prices we can't make money on.

Which is sillier? Trying it my way, and saying, okay, we may lose some of the air greyhound types but at least we'll actually make money on those tickets we do sell.

Or doing it your way, which results in selling lots of tickets at a loss?

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I think your assumption is faulty. The major airlines have been trying to milk every cent out of every seat they could ever since deregulation. They have yield management programs that do this. It was those programs that directly lead to the profits in the 90s that you mentioned. During the tech bubble with so many business people needing to travel the airlines charged enormous fares on high demand routes = profits. During this time you could still get cheap seats on thin routes or days.

Today the airlines are still trying to milk every cent they can out of every seat. Several factors are working against them.
1) Business travel demand is down as a percentage of tickets sold and business travelers will not pay those "90s" fares ever again.
2) A third of seats now are on LCCs, and this continues to grow.
3) There were too many hubs established trying to chase those high-yield business guys. This means every time a major tries to make a stand on prices, it's guaranteed that competition will move in to take advantage. The northeast was the last high yield fortress. Now SWA and JetBlue and AirTran and others are concentrating on that area. There's no place to hide, except maybe international, for now.

So I'm just saying we disagree on the premise that the airlines are intentionally selling below cost. I think that's absurd on it's face and in fact the airlines are desperately trying to harvest all the revenue they can.

So you misrepresent my "solution". I've said over and over, this is a supply vs. demand issue and won't be resolved until those factors balance out at a point where revenue exceeds cost. So my "solution" is to let the market fix itself.
 
LCC's may be doing well but they don't provide the connection possibilities that the legacies still do. You can't go from Lewiston, ID to Grand Forks, ND on a LCC. The LCC guys just cherry pick the profitable routes. If the legacies disappeared, the guy in the smaller outlying town would be stuck driving 5 hours to get to an airport, and the state leaders would be up in arms about how its killing the economy of their state.
 
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Do you think that load factors in the high 70's low 80's is enough?

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Yep. If you PLAN for load factors in the mid to high 80s and set your prices to reflect that, you're gonna do well during tourist season, but unless you raise the prices to make up for the drops in load factor in the off season, you're going under. For example, SWA generally makes a decent profit off an 80% load factor on a 737-700 during the summer, even with a lot of the discount tickets. Keep in mind that whole 80% is NOT a discount fare. Maybe 30% of the seats are offered at that rate, and once the seats are sold, they're gone for that flight. Anyone else has to go with the next tier price and the restrictions (or lack there-of) offered on those tickets. Since that bottom 30% was probably non-refundable and non-transferable, the airline doesn't really care if the people show for the flight or not once they have the money. Now, if you sold the WHOLE airplane for $29 each way, then you'd probably have to run about a 90% load factor to break even.

You also mentioned freight and mail, which are HUGE money makers for airlines, especially SWA. We used to have management breathing down our necks to make sure the mail and freight got on the flights they were supposed to. My last year as a ramper, SWA even went with $100,000+ mail tracking system. New rules for mail contracts said that anyone with a US Postal Service contract needed a tracking system. The boys in DAL figured the money we would make from the mail contract far outweighed the costs of implementing a tracking system, so it was done. Too bad scanning a bar code is too difficult for some of the rampers, so a lot of that mail flies for free
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Admittingly, I've read a few books on airline economics but I doubt I will ever understand their pricing structures. $380 to go from MHT to CLT on USAir but $149 to MHT-FLL is farther and costs less?

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Depends on when you buy, how many seats are left, etc. If you buy earlier, you stand a better chance of getting a better deal since some of those low price seats (with the restrictions) are still available. The loads on a MHT-FLL are gonna be higher than a MHT-CLT since FLL is a tourist destination, so the price can be offered lower in order to attract volume. If the load factor is less, you have to charge more per ticket in order to break even. For example, say the break even point for the flight is $100,000 (WAY over simplified, BTW). You figure on the MHT-CLT run, you're going to have a 40% load factor. Using SWA's 737-700 seat config (b/c that's really the only one I know), that's about 55 seats. So, you need to come up with $100,000 using those 55 seats. Anything above that is gravy. You can mix and match the seats by offering 30 seats at the fun fare price (non-transferable, non-refundable, only on wed, sat, tues, etc), 25 seats at the next tier price, 25 at the next tier price and the rest at full fare with no restrictions. You're hoping that some people will buy the full fare ticket price to avoid the restrictions, which happens more times than people realize, especially with frequent fliers (I didn't realize this until I worked ticket counter at XJT and saw how many people actually DO pay full fare). Now, on the MHT-FLL run, you're looking at a load factor of around 80% since it's a tourist destination. You can offer MORE of the fun fare and other lower prices since you know you'll get more people on the flight. The airline knows they can get more people on the plane due to the destination, so they more or less sell the seats at a bulk price rather than individual pricing, sorta like shopping at Sam's instead of Target.
 
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LCC's may be doing well but they don't provide the connection possibilities that the legacies still do. You can't go from Lewiston, ID to Grand Forks, ND on a LCC. The LCC guys just cherry pick the profitable routes. If the legacies disappeared, the guy in the smaller outlying town would be stuck driving 5 hours to get to an airport, and the state leaders would be up in arms about how its killing the economy of their state.

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Agree. The problem is there are so many hubs that almost any city-pair you choose has all the major airlines serving them, sometimes through more than one hub. So even on the routes untouched by LCCs the competition is severe for every passenger. Eliminate some hubs and things start to rationalize, and the small cities still get service.

But the fact that a third of airline seats are on LCCs is a huge factor, and will only get worse.
 
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LCC's may be doing well but they don't provide the connection possibilities that the legacies still do. You can't go from Lewiston, ID to Grand Forks, ND on a LCC.

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Enter the regional jet. The problem is, demand for direct Lewiston to Grand Forks flights would probably amount to a flight a week, and we're somehow back to the days of the stagecoach. Funnel EVERYONE headed for Grand Forks through Minneapolis or Denver, and the economics work again.

If it takes re-regulating the industry to ensure service to these smaller communities, so be it; otherwise, the industry will quickly become fraught with nothing but LCCs serving only profitable routes.

In other words, this one isn't in the hands of the MBAs at the airlines, but in the JDs in Congress.
 
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In other words, this one isn't in the hands of the MBAs at the airlines, but in the JDs in Congress.

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Or option 3: free markets without government interference.
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I agree. The legacies cover a lot of cities that LCCs have no interest in.

Of course, the cycle could start over. Picture this:

As the legacies hemorhage (sp?) cash, they pull out of smaller unprofitable markets. It is harder to make profits on many smaller cities because there aren't many regional airliners left that seat less than 50 and many small towns can't support an airplane that big several times per day.

To fill the vacuum, new 135 operators flying 19 seat turboprop airliners and/or Very Light Jets move in.

As the LCCs look for places to expand, they acquire or form codeshares with these 135 operators. Presto, we suddenly over several years (
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) are looking at Jet Blue Express, Southwest Connection, Airtran Airlink, and, dare I say it, Independence Express.

It could happen.
 
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To fill the vacuum, new 135 operators flying 19 seat turboprop airliners and/or Very Light Jets move in.

As the LCCs look for places to expand, they acquire or form codeshares with these 135 operators. Presto, we suddenly over several years (
crazy.gif
) are looking at Jet Blue Express, Southwest Connection, Airtran Airlink, and, dare I say it, Independence Express.

It could happen.

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Of course it will happen. If there are markets that need service, somebody will do it. I started out my career flying scheduled Part 135 in airplanes where a 66% load factor was 2 people. And it was profitable.

The old government subsidized markets were a joke. A Convair 580 would roll in and kick 2 people off and load 1. Hopefully we won't go back to that waste of tax money.
 
Say what you want about hedging, But it is like going into Vegas and picking a color and a number. Who knows what side of the bed the shiek is going to wake up on tommorrow.

About the only thing left standing in the way of Legacy and LCC operating cost is fuel. The Legacys have cut and cut, and fuel keeps going up negating the work they have done in cuts.
 
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The Legacys have cut and cut, and fuel keeps going up negating the work they have done in cuts.

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Yup.

I had a conversation back in February with a direct report to UAL's CEO.

Know what he said? He said they planned conservatively. They didn't plan on $25 a barrel fuel. They planned it so their breakeven point would be $40 a barrel, just in case things were bad.

Well, nobody was predicting $60 a barrel oil, which is what we've got now.
 
Why does the gas station never feel the pinch of higher priced oil? It seems that when one station raises the price, everyone else in town matches it in 20 minutes. I've never heard them force the attendant to take a wage cut to keep the station open. And none of them have gotten rid of services like the squeegie? Maybe taking a lesson from the gas station and charging the price to reflect the rising cost would help go a long way. And if Johnny doesn't want to pay $500 for a ticket, he can take the Greyhound to go see grandma and spend 2 days on the road.
 
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Say what you want about hedging, But it is like going into Vegas and picking a color and a number.

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Well except for the fact that going in you know ahead of time exactly what your winnings/losses are going to be. Which makes it not like Las Vegas. Companies that don't or can't hedge are just crossing their fingers and hoping, that's gambling. Companies that can and do hedge significant parts of their fuel needs know what their fuel costs will be in the near term future. That's not gambling.

There are many advantages to being a solvent, credit-worthy company. The ability to stabilize your fuel costs through hedging is just one of them. Why is this unfair or should be made illegal?

You are free as an individual to hedge if you want. There are a thousand ways to do it.

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Know what he said? He said they planned conservatively. They didn't plan on $25 a barrel fuel. They planned it so their breakeven point would be $40 a barrel, just in case things were bad.

Well, nobody was predicting $60 a barrel oil, which is what we've got now.

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I wouldn't say nobody was predicting it (some have been predicting $100 a barrel oil). It's amazing how much wishful thinking colors "analysis" sometimes. At $60 a barrel oil is still well below historical levels on an inflation adjusted basis.

What choice did they have but to plan for cheaper fuel? Otherwise they would not be able to present an exit plan. The truth is a significant part of the capacity and particuarly some hubs need to be shut down.
 
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Why does the gas station never feel the pinch of higher priced oil? It seems that when one station raises the price, everyone else in town matches it in 20 minutes. I've never heard them force the attendant to take a wage cut to keep the station open. And none of them have gotten rid of services like the squeegie? Maybe taking a lesson from the gas station and charging the price to reflect the rising cost would help go a long way. And if Johnny doesn't want to pay $500 for a ticket, he can take the Greyhound to go see grandma and spend 2 days on the road.

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And yet gas stations go out of business and new ones open just like any other enterprise. Convenience stores keep gas prices at a bare minimum trying to just be able to buy the next load of gas. The reason is that all their profits are in beef jerky and beer. They want to keep gas prices low enough to attract you in, hoping you'll come in for cigarettes, coffee, etc. They hate "pay at the pump" for that reason.

Of course the big difference between gas and seats is that gas can stay in the ground, waiting to be sold. Seats are either sold or that revenue is gone forever. If, for example, gas rapidly evaporated so that stations either sold it or lost it, you'd see some incredible (below cost) gasoline sales going on. Combine that with online booking, which is like having a gas station on every single corner, and you have a situation where the consumer has tremendous control over pricing.

And believe me their help doesn't get paid much.
 
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And if Johnny doesn't want to pay $500 for a ticket, he can take the Greyhound to go see grandma and spend 2 days on the road.

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This may be the first time that Icelandair and I have agreed on something.

Which means it must be right.
 
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Presto, we suddenly over several years ( ) are looking at Jet Blue Express, Southwest Connection, Airtran Airlink, and, dare I say it, Independence Express.

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You mean like this?

Air Tran Jet Connect


Edited: Had to find a link that didn't take a mile long if it broke. Sorry flyover.
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I remember Air Tran and Air Whisky did experiment with a connection service. And JB is getting all those new Embraers.

I've heard that high gas prices actually hurt gas stations because the profit margin on gas is so slim. They make their money from other items like soft drinks, candy, and $5 per gallon milk or $2 per loaf bread. People dont buy that stuff as much when gas prices are high.

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Presto, we suddenly over several years ( ) are looking at Jet Blue Express, Southwest Connection, Airtran Airlink, and, dare I say it, Independence Express.



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I forgot to add that they will probably all be flown by Mesa.
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