NTSB wants to monitor flight deck conversations

Nobody would, absent an event, which supports that the fears are likely not warranted.

I must have misunderstood as I thought the argument was to randomly listen to/view CVRs. Not so?

Having worked closely with NTSB for many, many years, you would be surprised by how much is missing, particulary the "whys", which are necessary to prevent future accidents.
No. I understand the 'why' is often missing. I just don't see the connection between a camera recording the event will explain the why.

Same was said about CVRs, but that didn't come to pass.
Again, I must have misunderstood. The articles I have read thus far call for random and routine scanning of the recorders.

And thanks for the information.

I take it you are/were familiar with Reason's chart for culpability?
 
I am pulling from memory, but I think our tech rep said the fdr stores at 120hrz for -1 to +2 minutes of an event trigger. Different sensors have a different refresh rate. In normal operation.

Black and white video doesn't help much. We have color change warning on our instruments. It would be hard to tell the red stall cue from other sources.

We also have an anti glare/ reflection coating on our displays that prevent clear images from off axis angles.

A high shutter rate video camera induced to a g load will have sync issues, resulting in banding. It also produes an effect where it acts like a polarizing filter, which may black out the LCD display completely.

Honestly, the benefit is not worth the price. That money would be better spent working on improving training, and enhancing line by line observations. If you had pilots going around, sitting down with others, buying them a lunch and activiky engaging them, you will get far more valuable information.
 
Orange, there were two issues here. The first was as you stated, but I jumped in saying that, while the use of that for management was wrong, we would gain a lot by adding it to other safety programs, to include support of FOQA and accident/incident investigation. I further stated that the use of video would enhance those.

Tuck, the sampling rates vary widely based on the particular input. Some are as low as 2 hz, others are a lot higher, but all leave gaps and leave one to make assumptions. In that way, the older analogue had an advantage as it did not miss data points. Cameras do not need to be color as the color is recorded in other ways, and may be contained in NVM of the instrument itself, however, other things may not be visible. Did the pilot flying choose to have a particular item displayed? On many parameters, for example, the FDR only records if the data was available, not whether it was actually selected on the screen. Did the pilot flying actually push on that control intentionally, or was it a reaction to something else? Accidents have happened as a result of the latter, and the CVR did not help to discern which. Did the pilot push that button to activate the anti-ice and the switch just didn't take? The FDR and CVR provide no help for this scenario, but this has happened more than once.

The examples go on and on, particularly in the more advanced aircraft when you get into interactions of FBW systems, etc.
 
Have you been living under a rock? There isn't a single person on this forum with more accident investigation and analysis experience than Seggy.

:hiya: I've got a bit myself. ;)

I know MikeD has more than his fair share too.


Edit: I see it's already been covered.
 
Seagull, you claim that you aren't involved in management anymore, but that you're still involved in accident investigation. Does that mean that you're on the FDX CASC? If so, it's very troubling that an ALPA volunteer is openly advocating against ALPA's very public stance on these issues. Is your MEC aware of this?
 
Seagull, you claim that you aren't involved in management anymore, but that you're still involved in accident investigation. Does that mean that you're on the FDX CASC? If so, it's very troubling that an ALPA volunteer is openly advocating against ALPA's very public stance on these issues. Is your MEC aware of this?

No, I am neither of the above! However, I can say that many on the safety side of ALPA often do not agree with what political side is saying. The NTSB's position is more reflective in this particular case.

I do have to point out that you seem to keep trying to attack me, rather than my posts.
 
No, I am neither of the above!

How are you involved in an investigation at your airline if you represent neither the company nor the Association?

However, I can say that many on the safety side of ALPA often do not agree with what political side is saying. The NTSB's position is more reflective in this particular case.

Bull.

I do have to point out that you seem to keep trying to attack me, rather than my posts.

It wasn't an attack. I just want to make sure that one of our union's safety volunteers isn't publicly opposing the Association's position on such a key issue at a time when lawmakers are preparing to act.
 
Nor would cameras if focused ONLY on flight controls.

The money and technology involved to get this working in airliners is very cost prohibitive. I agree the money is better spent in other areas. The problem is that we no longer have the experiened / seasoned pilots in the left seats mentoring newbie FO's at the lower levels. In some of the regional cockpits today there isn't a lot of experience to draw on from both crew members.

I know in our cockpits (not counting FE's) there is normally 12,000 - 30,000+ hours of combined experience up front. You just don't normally have that kind of experience in the regionals any more.

Cameras still won't answer the why in a lot of cases.

I believe NWA has a program where the FDR data is sent via acars to the union and any abnormal event or unstablized approach is automaitcally flagged. The crew of the flight also receives an email about it. Anyone have experience with that system?
 
Good to see you surfacing for air. :hiya:

Hey there, Polar...always great to hear from you. Yeah, sorry I haven't been posting much these days. Lot's of reasons; but, I've been lurking when I can. Trying to keep my mouth shut and my ears open. :pirate: :)
 
How are you involved in an investigation at your airline if you represent neither the company nor the Association?

It wasn't an attack. I just want to make sure that one of our union's safety volunteers isn't publicly opposing the Association's position on such a key issue at a time when lawmakers are preparing to act.

I didn't say that I wasn't involved for the company, just said I was not in management! If you believe that ALPA safety volunteers all are lock step agreeing with the political leadership, you've been smoking something.

Finally, you have consistently been trying to attack ME rather than attempt to make any cogent arguments against what I am writing. You are still doing so.
 
I didn't say that I wasn't involved for the company, just said I was not in management!

Semantics.

If you believe that ALPA safety volunteers all are lock step agreeing with the political leadership, you've been smoking something.

Didn't say that they were, but private thoughts should not become public disagreement on an issue that has national attention.
 
I believe NWA has a program where the FDR data is sent via acars to the union and any abnormal event or unstablized approach is automaitcally flagged. The crew of the flight also receives an email about it. Anyone have experience with that system?

Flight Operations Quality Assurance, or FOQA, is now in place at numerous carriers.

It is an excellent program and it pays for itself.

I interned in the flight safety department of Northwest Airlines and learned lots about the FOQA thing.

What you've typed is somewhat correct. What happens, is, a computer card in the FDR periodically gets pulled out by maintenance at about a dozen different stations and data from the past few weeks is downloaded and sent to the main FOQA computer system.

Line pilots that work in the FOQA department analyze this data, along with a FOQA analyst who is not a pilot. They can't look at every single individual flight but they scan the various categories of data for things that stick out. High descent rates at low altitude, idle thrust all the way to touchdown, flap overspeeds, greater than 250 below 10K, and so on.

Some of the things are the type where you don't need to find out who the crew is and contact them to learn more. It might be something that is not necessarily unsafe, yet a large number of similar occurrences indicate that things may be trending in the wrong direction.

Other instances do warrant a bit of detective work, such as an approach where the thrust is idle from 10,000 feet to touchdown, and the flaps are being retracted right at their speed limits, each increment at a time, all the way down to the landing flap setting being put in at 500' AGL and the wheels touching at REF+15 and max reverse.

In a case like that, one of the designated FOQA "gatekeepers" will contact the crew, often just the PIC. The gatekeepers are line pilots and they are the only ones that ever see the crew names rather than de-identified flight data. They are not punishing the crew nor do they have the authority to, but they will get in touch with someone who was in the cockpit and ask whatever they need to..."what the hell were you guys doing two weeks ago landing at SFO like that???"

The FOQA office puts out newsletters a couple times a year, and you can also see some bulletins in the crewrooms featuring the latest concerns of the department. Top ten unstable approach airports to watch out for, a summary of an interesting event (de-identified), etc.

Like I mentioned, it pays for itself. They find engine data that they can take to the manufacturers and say, "look, we're being charged for this but we're consistently seeing this instead and here's the data to prove it." Northwest ended up saving a ton of money on something with the A-330 engines in the past few years with something like that, I forget the details.
 
Other instances do warrant a bit of detective work, such as an approach where the thrust is idle from 10,000 feet to touchdown, and the flaps are being retracted right at their speed limits, each increment at a time, all the way down to the landing flap setting being put in at 500' AGL and the wheels touching at REF+15 and max reverse.

Eh, subtract the fast landing and where's the problem? Sounds like maximum efficiency to me! Aren't you airline guys taxiing around on one engine all the time to save gas?
 
Eh, subtract the fast landing and where's the problem? Sounds like maximum efficiency to me! Aren't you airline guys taxiing around on one engine all the time to save gas?

The idle descent part certainly is efficient but it's not supposed to be idle all the way to touchdown.

REF+30 down to 100' AGL a dot and a half high and then touching down at REF+15 5000 feet down the runway is a recipe for an overrun if the runway is not long.
 
The idle descent part certainly is efficient but it's not supposed to be idle all the way to touchdown.

REF+30 down to 100' AGL a dot and a half high and then touching down at REF+15 5000 feet down the runway is a recipe for an overrun if the runway is not long.

Yeah, I was sort of kidding. But you'll notice upon re-reading that I deleted the fast landing. As a parting shot, I'll take your "idle descent at 250 followed by a squeaker on the bars" guy to all of these fricking airline guys futzing around "on profile" at 150 knots 15 miles out. It seems like some people have forgotten the whole "mastery of the aircraft" PTS thing. GET OUT OF THE WAY!@ COMIN THROUGH!@ ;)
 
Yeah, I was sort of kidding. But you'll notice upon re-reading that I deleted the fast landing. As a parting shot, I'll take your "idle descent at 250 followed by a squeaker on the bars" guy to all of these fricking airline guys futzing around "on profile" at 150 knots 15 miles out. It seems like some people have forgotten the whole "mastery of the aircraft" PTS thing. GET OUT OF THE WAY!@ COMIN THROUGH!@ ;)

Oh I know what you mean.

I've been doing a daytrip a lot lately that gets us in at 12:37AM, 12:52AM release time. Employee shuttle runs every 30 minutes that late, and there's one at 1:05AM.

I love getting it just right where we're idle from the top of descent all the way down to 500' AGL. With little traffic at that hour (I usually don't do much late night flying) it's fun to get to get cleared for the visual 20 miles out and do 250 knots to the marker and time it just right. Some guys and girls definitely seem to not know how to get the most out of the airplane and still be perfectly safe.
 
Semantics.

Didn't say that they were, but private thoughts should not become public disagreement on an issue that has national attention.

Not semantics at all. Further, your implication that I sit behind a desk is way off the mark. Our safety department is in an entire separate chain of command than our flight department, with an entirely different VP.

Further, it does not change my basic point that you have yet to make a logical argument, instead you choose to just attack me as your way of "proving" your point. I submit that such an approach only demonstrates that your position lacks merit.

You seem to have a problem with free speech ("private thoughts should not become public disagreement"). Do you also feel that no American should speak out against their own country in a public manner? I would submit that if the leadership is wrong (which they ARE in this case), then those with more expertise SHOULD speak out. I would also venture that you would do the same if you did not agree with an issue.
 
Yeah, I was sort of kidding. But you'll notice upon re-reading that I deleted the fast landing. As a parting shot, I'll take your "idle descent at 250 followed by a squeaker on the bars" guy to all of these fricking airline guys futzing around "on profile" at 150 knots 15 miles out. It seems like some people have forgotten the whole "mastery of the aircraft" PTS thing. GET OUT OF THE WAY!@ COMIN THROUGH!@ ;)

Hey Boris I agree with you that it sucks when a guy is at 160 15 out on a VFR day, but they have every right to fly the plane within their approved profiles. There normally is a reason for it. If it's IFR a stabilied approach is a must.

While Idle from the FL's to the runway would save gas you need to have your engines spools at 500-1000AGL. The amount not saved in the last 1000' or so is neglible and safety concerns out weigh doing it. Jet engines, especially those on the older jets, have a long spool time and if you wait you may not be able to recover from windshear, need to go around, or break a descent rate. The 5+ seconds it takes a jet engine to spool is an eternity when you needed to 2 seconds ago.
 
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