NooB logging question

I don't get it. WTF?

This nitpicking about PIC seems like some kind of "Protestant- Lutheran- Missouri Synod- Reformed" VS. "Protestant- Lutheran- Missouri Synod- Orthodox" feud. Almost. In that case you would have folks selectively picking arcane, previously edited passages from a highly redacted, often internally contradictory document as PROOF of their righteousness. Here we have no ambiguity. Here we have black letter law, regardless of ancient and revered tribal customs and traditions.

When you are flying as PIC, regardless of the "type of PIC", it's all PIC... Log it; It's yours. Again. It's. Black. Letter. Law. There's no ambiguity here.

Just a few weeks ago I had a conversation with an 16000 hr retired airline Captain and another pilot. I don't recall precisely why the subject came up, but it did. Unprompted, the recently retired Captain urged exactly the analysis I just did.
 
RamRise said:
Wasn't trying to condemn your quest for truth on the subject, I was merely making a smart remark because I've beat this horse too many times and the answer is clear in my head. I commend you for getting educated on the topic as much as possible. When you go into an interview situation, you will know you are doing it legally and correctly, while simultaneously knowing what the airline expects of you. In this line of work I've found their is little room for ignorance and even less for deception.
The other thing is people who try simplify things may be right the majority of the time, but don't have the full picture painted.
In my electronic logbook, I've logged all my time as a part 135 SIC as SIC, but created a separate column for 'performing the duties of PIC under the supervision of a PIC', yes its long-winded, but my interviewer was satisfied with it as proof of meeting ATP requirements, as well as proof I had flown the Pilatus a lot and not just yanked on the gear and talked on the radios.
Of course this was me on the quest for 1500. Once you get to the 121 world, I'm not sure how much logging sole manipulator time will even help career advancement, as the others have stated.
Anyway good luck, and don't be afraid to use the search function :p, there are at least two threads I started on this topic.
Click to expand...
So if you are "performing the duties of PIC, what does that mean? Were you flying as Captain under supervision? If not, it sure sounds like you were, in fact, PIC. Who else performs the duties of the PIC but the PIC? Isn't one of the duties of the PIC to sign out the plane? I'm really not attempting to be snide right now. Sincerely, unless under supervision, how else does one "perform the duties of PIC" without being the PIC? If you were not signing out the plane, should not the special note read something like: "performing some of the duties of PIC"?
 
The real answer is, it depends on what you are logging for.
If you are logging in order to meet the FAA requirements for currency and qualifications, you log time in accordance with the FAR. I
jtrain609 said:
No airline, actually, at least none that I'm aware of. This is one of those situations where being right can get you killed.
Click to expand...
That's an interesting perspective. I haven't come across a story about someone being killed while writing times in a logbook while sitting at a desk with a coffee or a beer. Care to pass it on?
 
CatchyScreenName said:
i'm not worried about explaining my logbook in the least bit. I've found that 99% of the irrational fears that get passed around as old wives tales by pilots are not worth worrying about. if someone asked me why I logged it that way I would simply say 'because I logged it per the regs' which I haven't done yet and which is why one of my questions was 'do i have to log it as SIC?'.
Click to expand...
I always enjoy these topics and the implication that "I put times in my FAA logbook in accordance with rules the FAA has had has had for longer than I've had a logbook*. I filled out your application in accordance with your rules."

That's why I make the comment about airlines holding following the rules against pilots. It really does sound that way.

(* I'm tempted to say that for most applying for an airline job, it's probably "longer than I've been alive.")

Now that I know the context in which you are asking: From the FAA logging perspective, the logging rules contained in 61.51 don't change just because you are flying Part 121. You seem to understand what they are, but yes, if it is an aircraft that requires a type rating and you are PIC rated for it, your stick wiggle time is loggable as PIC time under 61.51(e)(1)(i). If you happen to be acting as SIC at the time, it is also loggable as SIC time under 61.51(f)(1) or (f)(2). And, amazing as it may seem, if it's night time you can also log it for that. And if you are in actual, you can log that too. Just be sure that the total isn't the addition of all of those! And, of course, there's no need to log what you don't need.

That's the FAA. If you choose to log in accordance with the special rules of Joe's Flight Service instead, go ahead, so long as they don't conflict with the FAA's rule (they can, you know). The only things the FAA requires are (1) that your log entries show you are current and qualified for what you are doing and (2) the information you do log be accurate under the rules.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
I always enjoy these topics and the implication that "I put times in my FAA logbook in accordance with rules the FAA has had has had for longer than I've had a logbook*. I filled out your application in accordance with your rules."

That's why I make the comment about airlines holding following the rules against pilots. It really does sound that way.

(* I'm tempted to say that for most applying for an airline job, it's probably "longer than I've been alive.")

Now that I know the context in which you are asking: From the FAA logging perspective, the logging rules contained in 61.51 don't change just because you are flying Part 121. You seem to understand what they are, but yes, if it is an aircraft that requires a type rating and you are PIC rated for it, your stick wiggle time is loggable as PIC time under 61.51(e)(1)(i). If you happen to be acting as SIC at the time, it is also loggable as SIC time under 61.51(f)(1) or (f)(2). And, amazing as it may seem, if it's night time you can also log it for that. And if you are in actual, you can log that too. Just be sure that the total isn't the addition of all of those! And, of course, there's no need to log what you don't need.

That's the FAA. If you choose to log in accordance with the special rules of Joe's Flight Service instead, go ahead, so long as they don't conflict with the FAA's rule (they can, you know). The only things the FAA requires are (1) that your log entries show you are current and qualified for what you are doing and (2) the information you do log be accurate under the rules.
Click to expand...

You have to remember, being a PIC qualified First Officer for domestic operations is only something that has happened in the past few years. Prior to the 1500 hour/ATP ruled, all you needed was a commercial certificate to legally operate a transport category jet as a First Officer in Part 121 operations.

Thus logging Part 61.51 PIC was a moot point as the only thing you could log was SIC.
 
Simple answer only the PIC listed on the 121 flight release can log PIC. The other pilot is listed as SIC.

Logging any other way under 121 will raise questions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
The real answer is, it depends on what you are logging for.
If you are logging in order to meet the FAA requirements for currency and qualifications, you log time in accordance with the FAR. I

That's an interesting perspective. I haven't come across a story about someone being killed while writing times in a logbook while sitting at a desk with a coffee or a beer. Care to pass it on?
Click to expand...

Sorry, I didn't mean in a literal sense. Maybe it's better to say that this isn't a hill worth dying on.

Maybe that's a little more common of a phrase.
 
ctab5060X said:
You have to remember, being a PIC qualified First Officer for domestic operations is only something that has happened in the past few years. Prior to the 1500 hour/ATP ruled, all you needed was a commercial certificate to legally operate a transport category jet as a First Officer in Part 121 operations.

Thus logging Part 61.51 PIC was a moot point as the only thing you could log was SIC.
Click to expand...

There's the rub.

You couldn't do it in the past.

Now you can.

Thank ya'll for the great information and opinions.
 
ctab5060X said:
Another thing to keep in mind... in an aircraft that requires two pilots per the certification, are you truly "sole manipulator"?
Click to expand...

What if one pilot is programming the FMC and the other is hand flying? What if the PF has the AP on and the PNF selects direct to a fix in the FMS?

This stuff isn't worth lawyering in the part 121 world.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Crop Duster said:
So if you are "performing the duties of PIC, what does that mean? Were you flying as Captain under supervision? If not, it sure sounds like you were, in fact, PIC. Who else performs the duties of the PIC but the PIC? Isn't one of the duties of the PIC to sign out the plane? I'm really not attempting to be snide right now. Sincerely, unless under supervision, how else does one "perform the duties of PIC" without being the PIC? If you were not signing out the plane, should not the special note read something like: "performing some of the duties of PIC"?
Click to expand...

From another thread:
Read the duncan 2012 interpretation, It talks about this. I'm doing that just for the purposes of demonstrating that I meet the aeronautical requirements of the ATP certificate, not just willy nilly. I will likely discontinue that after I'm an ATP pilot and not applying for a new certicate (in other words, to meet FAA requirements).

RamRise said:
http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/pic-requirement-for-atp-or-ratp.232511/#post-2598309

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2012/duncan-afs-200 - (2012) legal interpretation.pdf

The duties of PIC listed in the Duncan interpretation is : "landings and Takeoff's, en-route flying, low approaches, and ground functions".

Log it as SIC and make remarks you did these things. That's what I'm doing atleast.
Click to expand...

Also, another thread worth reading:
http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/250-pic-for-atp.241296/#post-2612249
 
CatchyScreenName said:
There's the rub.

You couldn't do it in the past.

Now you can.

Thank ya'll for the great information and opinions.
Click to expand...
I don't particularly see a rub. People with the experience, quals, and an ATP could always do it. It's just that airlines used not to care if the FO had an ATP so many didn't. A cynical person might even suggest the airlines didn't want the FO to have the experience, quals and an ATP as someone less qualified might be a whole lot cheaper to have sitting in the right seat.
 
Jordan93 said:
As an FO log SIC. Once you get to the left seat, log PIC.
Click to expand...
Too difficult...logged everything as PIC....

I once had a instructor at my former job ask me how his student is logging PIC and he couldn't (as the instructor)...

Ugh
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top