250 PIC for ATP

Gmata

Gmata

Well-Known Member
Hello Everybody, I have 1300 hours right now, 1000 of which are from flying an ERJ-145 as a SIC in Mexico for a Mexican airline.

I want to come back to the states to join a Regional get my ATP and get on my way to the majors hopefully some day.

Right now I only have 180 hours as PIC. One of the requirements for an ATP is 250 as a PIC.

The actual reg reads: 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least.


My question is, what qualifies as: second in command performing the duties of pilot in command does that mean operating the controls? If so at my airline we take turns one leg each pilot so that would put me at around 500 hours of performing duties of PIC.

Am I interpreting this correctly?
 
Gmata said:
Hello Everybody, I have 1300 hours right now, 1000 of which are from flying an ERJ-145 as a SIC in Mexico for a Mexican airline.

I want to come back to the states to join a Regional get my ATP and get on my way to the majors hopefully some day.

Right now I only have 180 hours as PIC. One of the requirements for an ATP is 250 as a PIC.

The actual reg reads: 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least.


My question is, what qualifies as: second in command performing the duties of pilot in command does that mean operating the controls? If so at my airline we take turns one leg each pilot so that would put me at around 500 hours of performing duties of PIC.

Am I interpreting this correctly?
Click to expand...

You can't log PIC unless you are signing for the aircraft in that case.
 
I am not trying to log PIC on my logbook that is clear to me, only for the purpose of satisfying this requirment of 250 pic or sic performing the duties of a PIC. That is my question when as a SIC it is considered that i am performing the duties of a PIC?
 
Look at the qualifier in 61.51e(1)(iv): "The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation—..."

So looks like you need to be undergoing training to become PIC, in an approved program.

Also, remember if you can't log it then it cannot apply towards a rating or license. That is one of the main reasons we log time, to prove we are qualified for the rating sought.


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RedBaron2000 said:
Look at the qualifier in 61.51e(1)(iv): "The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation—..."

So looks like you need to be undergoing training to become PIC, in an approved program.

Also, remember if you can't log it then it cannot apply towards a rating or license. That is one of the main reasons we log time, to prove we are qualified for the rating sought.

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Click to expand...

Actually that's incorrect. He can log it as SIC but use it to meet the requirements of 61.159 for the ATP.

From the 'Duncan 2012' Interpretation
The curious paragraph towards the end states:

"the new provision for logging PIC time [61.51(e)(1)(iv)] should not be confused with 61.159(a)(4) which permits a pilot to count second in command time toward the 250 hours of flight time required for the ATP certificate. Accordingly, if an SIC is not participating an an approved PIC training program in accordance with 61.51(e)(1)(iv), the time performing the duties of PIC under the supervision of a PIC must be logged as SIC time that may be relied upon for meeting the requirement of 61.159(a)(4)"

I'm bringing the FAA legal interpretation with me to the interview and training in case there are questions as to it's legality.
 
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cmhumphr said:
You can't log PIC unless you are signing for the aircraft in that case.
Click to expand...

What?? As long as he is rated and the sole manipulator of controls he can log it as PIC. Rated would include a type rating in his case.

The requirements for LOGGING PIC for the purposes of obtaining experience for a new a certificate or rating IS NOT THE SAME AS
Meeting the requirements for ACTING AS PIC of that aircraft.

Everybody checkout the DUNCAN 2012 interpretation. It spells all this out.
 
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RamRise said:
What?? As long as he is rated and the sole manipulator of controls he can log it as PIC. Rated would include a type rating in his case.

The requirements for LOGGING PIC to for the purposes of obtaining experience for a new a certificate or rating IS NOT THE SAME AS
Meeting the requirements for ACTING AS PIC of that aircraft.

Everybody checkout the DUNCAN 2012 interpretation. It spells all this out.
Click to expand...

My statement is towards his question of can I log the time as PIC in the Embraer when it is his leg. The answer is no. He is the SIC. If that was the case, every regional FO could log the PIC time when it is his/her leg.
 
cmhumphr said:
My statement is towards his question of can I log the time as PIC in the Embraer when it is his leg. The answer is no. He is the SIC. If that was the case, every regional FO could log the PIC time when it is his/her leg.
Click to expand...

Pretty sure he can if he holds a type rating that is not limited to SIC privileges. Doesn't mean an airline wouldn't scoff at him and kick him out of the room if he was claiming it was PIC time, as in the 'Turbine PIC' time that airlines refer to.

There is a difference between the FAA's definition of PIC and Airline's. This is dealing with Part 61; just because one is involved in a Part 121 instead of a Part 91 operation doesn't change the logging rules all of a sudden.

See the last paragraph and note 3 of the legal interpretation I posted:

"we note that if an SIC holds category, class and type ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown the pilot may log PIC time under 61.51(e)(1)(i) as the sole manipulator of controls of an aircraft for which he is rated"
 
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RamRise said:
Actually that's incorrect. He can log it as SIC but use it to meet the requirements of 61.159 for the ATP.

From the 'Duncan 2012' Interpretation
The curious paragraph towards the end states:

"the new provision for logging PIC time [61.51(e)(1)(iv)] should not be confused with 61.159(a)(4) which permits a pilot to count second in command time toward the 250 hours of flight time required for the ATP certificate. Accordingly, if an SIC is not participating an an approved PIC training program in accordance with 61.51(e)(1)(iv), the time performing the duties of PIC under the supervision of a PIC must be logged as SIC time that may be relied upon for meeting the requirement of 61.159(a)(4)"

I'm bringing the FAA legal interpretation with me to the interview and training in case there are questions as to it's legality.
Click to expand...

Ah yes, I stand corrected. Should've been looking under 61.159 anyway which is much clearer that SIC time (in this case) can be counted toward the ATP PIC requirement.


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