"No Problem May Be A Problem"

[PhilosopherPilot]

If I filed an ASAP every time I didn't hear anyone on the radio for 15 mins and didn't query, I'd have to file about 10 a day. The other option would be to annoy the living crap out of ATC.

No, that isn't a problem. It's when you have a disagreement about something and the controller says, "don't worry about it." If a supervisor files a PD, you're screwed without an ASAP on file.

And frankly, if people reported the way they should, most 4 day trips would have at least one ASAP. They aren't just for when you screw up. They are for when there was an observed safety issue.

 

[z987k]

No, that isn't a problem. It's when you have a disagreement about something and the controller says, "don't worry about it." If a supervisor files a PD, you're screwed without an ASAP on file.

And frankly, if people reported the way they should, most 4 day trips would have at least one ASAP. They aren't just for when you screw up. They are for when there was an observed safety issue.

No, as described in a previous post, a crew got violated for failing to maintain radio coms. Either they forgot to flip frequencies, or the controller forgot to handoff or they could have even been in an area of exceptionally poor radio reception.
I go for at least an hour a day without a word from anyone. Silence is normal. Maybe I miss a handoff, controller comes on, maybe 10 miles after I should be with the next guy.... hey XX, contact XX on 123.45. Maybe I didn't hear him, maybe he forgot, maybe I didn't receive it. It's a non-issue though. 10 days later I get a nice letter in the mail. I can't have that, so to resolve the potential problem, I can just start querying ATC every 5 mins if A) they're still there, and B) that they don't need me on a different frequency. Guess how annoying that'll get real fast.

 

[Van_Hoolio]

An ASAP every four-day? Ain't nobody got time for that!

 

[Douglas]

pilots vs atc
That's how they want it.
That's how it will be.

 

[z987k]

pilots vs atc
That's how they want it.
That's how it will be.

I don't want it that way. I need ATC to be my friend when things don't go well, and it's rather nice when they are at other times as well.

 

[wheelsup]

pilots vs atc
That's how they want it.
That's how it will be.

No it's not pilots vs controllers, more like pilots vs. FAA management

An unfortunate side effect of this will be more and more ASAPs for routine, I don't want to say screw ups, but well things like radio comms. Suddenly missing a radio freq (and having to query to get the right one) might become a PD. Where do they draw the line? Well anyway, if I'm submitting an ASAP for all of those *little* things, I don't have any time left on my 12 hour overnights with 6-7 leg days/7 hours block to fill out safety related ASAPs. Every single one of my ASAPs from today previous (unless I get something in the mail...) to about 2 years ago was for a safety related thing that wasn't a screw up on my part. That is much more important info IMO than things like missing a radio call - it was for things like RIC clr delivery completely unable to give out a clearance correctly or improper MEL verbiage conflicting with posted placards.

 

[Douglas]

No it's not pilots vs controllers, more like pilots vs. FAA management

Who else

 

[wheelsup]

Who else

I'm just saying don't take it out on ATC, they are simply the messenger, I'm sure they hate this crap as much as we do.

 

[derg]

Word around the water cooler is that it is becoming a huge 'administrative burden' ( CAPIP1998 and bareman are going to try to beat the snot out of me for using that term) on the FAA with these actions.

With that said, guess what is the root cause for this change in attitude by the FAA was? The leadership G.W.B. put in place within the FAA and their lack of respect for a just safety culture within the agency. Hopefully, under new leadership it starts turning around.

When I had my trip to the "Big Brown Desk" in ATL a few years ago (people, I ain't gonna talk about it on the internet so don't bother emailing or PM'ing me about it, wait for happy hour) I was more or less told that certain carriers, not mine, were getting "special consideration" from the FAA in terms of "They're good old boys, they'll take care of that", which got a little out of hand and when there were a couple of semi high-profile incidents and they started cracking down, they went at the entire industry "whole hog"/zero tolerance, which is why they came up with the Threat and Error Matrix and mandatory reporting.

The whole issue is doofus. Loads of money, you pay the ultimate price if things go wrong for a low-paid job and if you miss a taxiway, well, let's suspend your certificates. Yay, go team. Whut? PILOT SHORTAGE! Why don't kids want to fly?

 

[derg]

No it's not pilots vs controllers, more like pilots vs. FAA management

Circle gets a squaaaaaare on today's Hollywood Squares.

 

[MikeD]

The FAA changes with the winds. I remember the "zero tolerance" FAA, then the "kinder and gentler" FAA......and the pendulum seems to be swinging the other way again.

 

[Roger Roger]

Word around the water cooler is that it is becoming a huge 'administrative burden' ( CAPIP1998 and bareman are going to try to beat the snot out of me for using that term) on the FAA with these actions.

With that said, guess what is the root cause for this change in attitude by the FAA was? The leadership G.W.B. put in place within the FAA and their lack of respect for a just safety culture within the agency. Hopefully, under new leadership it starts turning around.

I don't know how truthful this is, but I believe it based on what I see in the maintenance world.

 

[Nick]

The FAA changes with the winds. I remember the "zero tolerance" FAA, then the "kinder and gentler" FAA......and the pendulum seems to be swinging the other way again.

I don't know about that, or at least in the airline sector.

I had a long conversation about just that a few weeks ago with my company's new FAA rep for our ASAP program. He said the mentality at Oklahoma City is very much heading away from the notion of suspensions, revocations, or fines as solutions and focusing a lot more on voluntary safety programs. He believes it also goes for general aviation, as the indoc school he was at is for all new FAA inspectors regardless of the area they will be working in (something 'school', I can't remember the name of the multi-week course).


I intensely dislike how mentalities towards dealing with pilot deviations can vary so greatly between FSDOs.

 

[MikeD]

I intensely dislike how mentalities towards dealing with pilot deviations can vary so greatly between FSDOs.

Standardization between FSDOs? Haha....that's a good one!

 

[derg]

Standardization between FSDOs? Haha....that's a good one!

CMO's are no different.

 

[RRPower]

In LGA and ORD, they will give you PD if you stop on a taxiway. That is just ATL being weird as usual. Most controllers don't want to tell you something trivial like taxi straight ahead to the ramp. Funny enough, one of our crews got violated in GSO for exiting K3 and going straight into the ramp. Anyone ever go to GSO? Like no more than 2 planes moving on the airport at any given time...really?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Does SouthernJets really recommend full automation for all RNAV SIDs? I can't remember flying with someone who got the autopilot on right away departing ATL. Maybe I need to consider doing it if they're going to be this picky about course accuracy.

 

[Trip7]

Does SouthernJets really recommend full automation for all RNAV SIDs? I can't remember flying with someone who got the autopilot on right away departing ATL. Maybe I need to consider doing it if they're going to be this picky about course accuracy.

ASA "strongly recommends" using the autopilot on RNAV SIDs at 600ft. I do it but most Captains I fly with don't. But it is one of the newer procedures. Most of the new procedures we have at ASA (Hydraulic 3b, FMS verification etc) 90% of Capts I fly with do it the old way.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[wheelsup]

In LGA and ORD, they will give you PD if you stop on a taxiway. That is just ATL being weird as usual. Most controllers don't want to tell you something trivial like taxi straight ahead to the ramp. Funny enough, one of our crews got violated in GSO for exiting K3 and going straight into the ramp. Anyone ever go to GSO? Like no more than 2 planes moving on the airport at any given time...really?

So they say I doubt anyone got violated for that more like a wake up call - did you ever see the thread on APC about the fuel burn issue? There was a ground instructor talking about how a Capt doing 330 to make a commute doubled their fuel burn when in all actuality it probably added about 200#, he claimed they landed at 1100 # or something. Over time you will find the "stories" they tell in ground school are just ways of scaring people into doing the right thing. Oh and BTW those posts from him are now "missing" off that site. This is the kind of stuff guys teaching NEW HIRES are telling, I'm not sure why, you don't need to embellish.

I've never really been upset about asking, hell when our TAS is off by 10 knots I have ATC change it. Every single response is a "WTF?" type (both from ATC and co-pilot) but I heard Republic get a phone number one day for doing a TAS vastly different. You just never know. It's the lack of consistency that bothers me.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

In LGA and ORD, they will give you PD if you stop on a taxiway.

I know that is often said, but I seriously doubt that would stand up.

"Well, why did you stop?"

"I was unsure of where I was going and didn't want to cause a runway incursion."

I hate the idea of too busy to follow the rules. Its exactly the same as skipping the before takeoff checklist because "well, we're number one...we better go."