no....no.....no!

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Haven't flown in three weeks. Was attacked by a fit of nostalgia, which led to this post...

Back around late '99 I was living on Dexter Avenue in Seattle, in a high-rise that was ridiculously expensive for studio-apartment rent. On Saturday mornings when it wasn't raining I'd sit on the roof of my building, nursing a hangover, and swallowing aspirin around sips of coffee. I'd contemplate my recent-ex, the dumb chess moves I'd made the night before at the Dexter And Hayes pub, potential liver damage and the uncertainty of where being a phone jockey was going to take me...

One of the things that gave me solace was the Beavers, Otters and Twotters that would glide in over the lake to land at Kenmore Air's terminal on Lake Union. That's the life, I thought. Sure, it doesn't pay much, but it's got to be a good life...

Fast-forward a decade. I've earned my PPL, I'm sitting on my balcony in Austin, hung over, and a 172 passes over, kinda low. And I have a pseudo-flashback to Seattle.

So I yank out the laptop and do a little searching...and I found this...

http://www.kenmoreair.com/sub_content.php?content_type=1107

It's linked off the jobs section.

Am I reading this right? Is my early 20s fantasy-dream-job a PFJ/PFT operation? Because, God help me, I'm ten years older and wiser and still like the idea of flying that gig. It's the kind of job that would make me reconsider present decisions about flying for a living. I think. I'm not totally sure. But if that's the case...well...I'm slightly heartbroken.

Say it ain't so, Joe....
 
Its tough to tell. At first it looked like it was just a simple training contract, but as I was reading on it then seemed like you're not going to get much more (if any) past the min 25 hrs needed to "pay back" the training note. I mean, if you can bill out a bunch of hours on top of that it may work out OK. But nowhere did I see where you had to pay anything up front out of pocket.

Then again, I could be totally wrong...but thats what I got out of it.
 
i really like this GEM:

3. In the event a First Officer exceeds 25 hours, First Officers are paid $20 per flight hour on flights where they are required


oh yeah.... F/O is not required on a C208. sorry.


soooo it looks like PFT to me... except you dont pay up front and youre stuck there for 12 months getting 25 hours a month of dual received.
 
Looks more like "fly a year for free" than PFJ. It's only one step above paying for it IMO.
 

are there really places out there that require two pilots on a C208? I thought it was essentially universal that C208's are a one man show?

and if so, sign me up for some right seat time in one! (paid though, please haha)
 
are there really places out there that require two pilots on a C208? I thought it was essentially universal that C208's are a one man show?

and if so, sign me up for some right seat time in one! (paid though, please haha)

There are some 208 outfits carrying passengers that need two pilots per their opspecs. Kenmore air may be one of them. I know New Mexico Airlines does.

Regardless, a FO in a Caravan is just ballast. As such, since a co pilot is basicly there only to keep the feds and/or insurance company happy, I don't see a problem with them paying a sub 1200TT guy peanuts. Said pilot probably didn't want to CFI, so there is plan B.
 
Yes, yes, yes.

I have read that page on their website for at least 5 years and it never changes. I would cross my fingers every time. Did this page give you a hang over? It gave me one before. As a FO it is not a considered a job to them. It is considered a favor for you to ride along and around in. Sounds abusive doesn't it. Work 25 hours for free why don't you. I know how you feel. I have been chasing that dream for about 10 years now.

TXaviator, the last Caravan job that was posted in the job section of this forum had a two pilot gig for passengers as well as single pilot aerial photos.

New Mexico does also. I didn't wanna take any chances going there. Airline tickets are expensive for round trip to interview not knowing the HR's name, who was going to meet me there, and if there was going to even be anyone there when I showed up at the proper time like I have also read about on this forum. I saved about 300 bucks not going to interview. The jump seats would not get me back to my home town for the 2-3 days off a week.

Well, you got to start somewhere, right? d a m n ed if you do and d a m n ed if you don't!
 
I am new to the flying world so i am not sure I understand what everyone above me is saying. However, this particular bullet looks appealing " 6. First Officers are scheduled on days for which he or she is available, this enables you to continue working a primary job."

If I was able to work a job and schedule 25 hours flying around it I would certainly consider it.

I personally am not against signing a training contract. Many businesses do it. If a company picks up the tab for your MBA or JD many of them require two years of service before you can move on. Why would training a pilot be any different.

EDIT!: Missed the part of the FO not being paid for the first 25 hours of flight. That would be a no go for me. They may train you and expect you to stay for a year but they better damn well pay you for your services while you fly, even if it is just to satisfy a regulation. Your time is worth money.
 

Better than that...Part 135

135.101 requires the use of two pilots on all passenger carrying IFR flights. However, 135.103 says that an approved autopilot may be used in lieu of an SIC in aircraft with less than 10 passenger seats (less than 10 passenger seats is dictated by 135.99). It is by these regulations, not the ops specs, that 135 operators are given the leeway to operate with one or two pilots. Its one of those "you can if you want, but you don't have to" situations when it comes to using the autopilot instead of the SIC. The SIC can still log the time (under the SIC column) even if the aircraft is equipped with an autopilot.
 
EDIT!: Missed the part of the FO not being paid for the first 25 hours of flight. That would be a no go for me. They may train you and expect you to stay for a year but they better damn well pay you for your services while you fly, even if it is just to satisfy a regulation. Your time is worth money.


First Officer Pay and Benefits:

2. First Officers repay their training contract by flying a minimum of 25 hours a month.
3. In the event a First Officer exceeds 25 hours, First Officers are paid $20 per flight hour on flights where they are required, additionally $50 for each overnight that is required.

This is saying you don't get paid until you fly over 25 hours in a month at a rate of $20 per flight hour on flights where they are required, additionally $50 for each overnight that is required. It says nothing about pay until here after reaching 25 hours a month. This is how you repay your training! I know it's sick! This is why you would need a side job!
 
YHGTBFKM! I couldn't help but bust out laughing when I read that "job" post. What a bunch of cheapskates; this should be illegal on the face of it for failing to pay at least minimum wage for services rendered. This isn't a training program; this is a business not paying for required labor. Only in aviation.:banghead:
 
YHGTBFKM! I couldn't help but bust out laughing when I read that "job" post. What a bunch of cheapskates; this should be illegal on the face of it for failing to pay at least minimum wage for services rendered. This isn't a training program; this is a business not paying for required labor. Only in aviation.:banghead:
:yeahthat:

uuuuuh yeah, what country are we in?
 
First Officer Pay and Benefits:

2. First Officers repay their training contract by flying a minimum of 25 hours a month.
3. In the event a First Officer exceeds 25 hours, First Officers are paid $20 per flight hour on flights where they are required, additionally $50 for each overnight that is required.

This is saying you don't get paid until you fly over 25 hours in a month at a rate of $20 per flight hour on flights where they are required, additionally $50 for each overnight that is required. It says nothing about pay until here after reaching 25 hours a month. This is how you repay your training! I know it's sick! This is why you would need a side job!

yeah, I skimmed over it and missed that the first time. After I read all the posts and re-read it and saw that garbage.
 
EDIT!: Missed the part of the FO not being paid for the first 25 hours of flight. That would be a no go for me. They may train you and expect you to stay for a year but they better damn well pay you for your services while you fly, even if it is just to satisfy a regulation. Your time is worth money.


Well said,

I'm ok with a low time FO in a single pilot airplane not being paid much. But, not being paid at all is another story.
 
are there really places out there that require two pilots on a C208? I thought it was essentially universal that C208's are a one man show?

and if so, sign me up for some right seat time in one! (paid though, please haha)
TXaviator,
Are you looking to make a career out of aviation? Or are you just a bitter wannabe? Every post you make seems dripping with derision and negative energy. In this business attitude is everything, and yours isn't cutting it.
If you are happy with your current circumstances, then by all means, don't change a thing. Anyone that listens to you and adopts your attitude will probably have the same result. Are you engaging in an adolescent cry for help?
 
My bet is they probably don't fly the FOs more than 25 hours unless that absolutely have no other choice. Why would they? This kind of ops obviously prey on low time pilots that are looking to build time any way they can. If you're a required crew member, you should get paid. Period. Now, I've got no problem with a training contract saying you're gonna pay back the money used to get you qualified in the airplane if you leave in under a year. The company has to protect their investment. But paying you in flight time for a commercial operation is just wrong. Even Airnet pays their right seat guys last time I heard (if they even still have that program going).

Honestly, what's it costing them to get an FO qualified in the 208? If they use their own planes and their own check airmen (who are probably salaried or get paid a minimum monthly guarantee), it's costing them gas. So, going off the $20/hr rate for over 25 hours, they think it's a $6000 per FO cost.
 
Honestly, what's it costing them to get an FO qualified in the 208? If they use their own planes and their own check airmen (who are probably salaried or get paid a minimum monthly guarantee), it's costing them gas. So, going off the $20/hr rate for over 25 hours, they think it's a $6000 per FO cost.

The part that really bugs me is that you have to fly a minimum of 25 hours per month, for a year, to fulfill the contract. That's at a minimum - 300 hours - unpaid time - in the airplane.

They indicate that they do sim training up in Anchorage.

Really depresses me that the situation is like that. I guess they know there are a lot of guys out there with dreams/feelings like mine, and they figure they can and should capitalize on it. I don't fault them for creating an opportunity for themselves from a business perspective, but I simply cannot dovetail that philosophy with my own ethics. Guess I'll shelve that one too....
 
TXaviator,
Are you looking to make a career out of aviation? Or are you just a bitter wannabe? Every post you make seems dripping with derision and negative energy. In this business attitude is everything, and yours isn't cutting it.
If you are happy with your current circumstances, then by all means, don't change a thing. Anyone that listens to you and adopts your attitude will probably have the same result. Are you engaging in an adolescent cry for help?


pardon me? i fail to see how mentioning something about my (incorrect) notion that C208's were generally flown single pilot, in ANY way translates to a universal negative attitude....

not sure what you're getting at here.
 
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