86 seater operated by Regional A, deadheader flies for Regional B, I'm employed by Regional C. All fly planes with the same paint job. Vague enough?
No deadheading in the jumpseat... at all?
- Thread starter JordanD
- Start date
86 seater operated by Regional A, deadheader flies for Regional B, I'm employed by Regional C. All fly planes with the same paint job. Vague enough?
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
True story I told the agent I was willing to ride the jumpseat as long as no other pilots requested it. I reiterated several times, she knew where I stood, "Oh of COURSE!!". I stood up next to the gate counter and a pilot walks up last minute to get on, "oh I'm sorry the jumpseat is full".
Seriously?
I think the real issue is setting precedent, you don't want to be required to ride the jumpseat as a PS. But I see no issue with taking it when the JS would be empty otherwise, and getting a paying pax (they pay our salary? Remember them...the CUSTOMER?) or nonrev on. Kinda sad that he's against doing it "because the union will be upset with me" though. Screw the union at that point, it's retarded to let a seat go empty on a sold out flight.
Seriously?
I think the real issue is setting precedent, you don't want to be required to ride the jumpseat as a PS. But I see no issue with taking it when the JS would be empty otherwise, and getting a paying pax (they pay our salary? Remember them...the CUSTOMER?) or nonrev on. Kinda sad that he's against doing it "because the union will be upset with me" though. Screw the union at that point, it's retarded to let a seat go empty on a sold out flight.
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
IF the DHer doesn't work for Airline A then I can see why he couldn't take the jumpseat.
It was always comfy in the L-1011/DC-10, and not bad in the 727.
They don't make them like they used to.
You start letting the company...?
I'm sorry, but who's airplane is it? Who's paying you?
I'm truly flabbergasted at the priorities displayed in this thread. Help the company? Help the person who is actually paying your salary? Nah, screw them! Help a jumpseater or non-rev who is contributing nothing to the bottom line? Sure, by all means. Welcome aboard!
It makes me wonder if people understand why they were hired in the first place. Believe it or not, you weren't hired to move airplanes around. You were hired to make money for your employer. That was the expectation they had when they offered you a job; that you would do whatever was in your abilities to help the company make money. There are many ways that you can do that, and one of them is taking the jumpseat if it will get a revenue passenger aboard. With airline profit margins the way they are, that one passenger might make the difference between profit and loss.
But no, I'm not gonna do that because the union might get mad. Well, last I checked, unions don't employ people. Unions don't pay people's salaries. Employers and their customers do that.
Don't get me wrong. Having utilized the jumpseat and non-rev privileges countless time during my aviation career, I am all for boarding as many jumpseaters and non-revs as can be carried. But you ought to be willing to expend at least as much effort to get paying passengers aboard.
Oh drama! 
Yeah I get paid to move airplanes around and it's my responsibility to arrive on duty well-rested as well. If we negotiated a business class seat to arrive well-rested to begin duty, you bet your patootie I'm not going to ride the "back grinder".
It all depends on the situation.
We don't know the specifics of why the pilot didn't take the jumpseat.
Yeah I get paid to move airplanes around and it's my responsibility to arrive on duty well-rested as well. If we negotiated a business class seat to arrive well-rested to begin duty, you bet your patootie I'm not going to ride the "back grinder".
It all depends on the situation.
We don't know the specifics of why the pilot didn't take the jumpseat.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Almost certainly not. Sounds to me like he was just making an excuse because he didn't want to ride the jumpseat. I don't really blame him for that, but that's what I'm betting. Me, I would have taken the cockpit jumpseat to help you out. Generally, I won't ride the FA jumpseat, though, even if it's to help get my best buddy on the flight. That seat on the 717/DC9/MD80 is pure misery, and I'll only go so far to help someone out.
We have a contract that we achieved with our negotiating capital. We have every right to enforce it. After all, the company probably demanded reductions in what they were willing to do with pay increases to trade for that right, so I'm not giving it up unless they cough up some more dough. Now, if it's helping out a fellow pilot, sure. But not to help out the company. That cabin seat was won through years of hard work and fighting in negotiations. When the company stops making ridiculous demands in exchange for basic dignities in the work place, I'll reconsider.
"The company signs my pay check, but ALPA fills in the amount."
Negotiating capital? You mean "give us what we want of we'll BTFD?" That negotiating capital? This is what I was talking about in the Boeing thread. It's these kinds of union strong arm tactics that make it difficult, if not impossible for an airline to break even, let alone make money. One revenue passenger can make the difference between profit and loss for the flight. But that is neither here nor there.
This attitude that I'm not going to do anything to "help the company" until they start "treating me better" is bass-ackwards. Treat you better? They're not here to treat you better. You're there to do a job for them. That's the expectation that they had when they hired you and starting paying you. They are paying you to treat them better.
I think it is safe to say that you don't enter into any sort of commercial transaction, whether it be buying a hamburger or a Honda, with the thought of "How can I treat them better?" So why do you have this expectation of your employer?
Relax man, sheesh.
If the employee group negotiated a passenger seat in order for you to arrive rested at your next assignment, use the seat unless there's an extenuating circumstance.
That's not a strong-arm tactic. Let's not be so dramatic about a simple issue.
Let's role play a bit. You're deadheading from LAX to JFK, then flying JFK to CDG that evening.
Agent hops onboard and says "We need the seat, you're now riding jumpseat". Do you comply or do you notify the agent that you're not moving?
If the employee group negotiated a passenger seat in order for you to arrive rested at your next assignment, use the seat unless there's an extenuating circumstance.
That's not a strong-arm tactic. Let's not be so dramatic about a simple issue.
Let's role play a bit. You're deadheading from LAX to JFK, then flying JFK to CDG that evening.
Agent hops onboard and says "We need the seat, you're now riding jumpseat". Do you comply or do you notify the agent that you're not moving?
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
Yup. The way I look at it is if the company couldn't afford it then they shouldn't have agreed to it. The contract is a two way street and they will hold me to my end EVERY TIME.
I'm all about working hard. But these items in the contract are there to keep the company honest. Do I think I deserve 100% pay for riding in the back of an airplane (more than likely napping)? No, not 100%. But what it does is keep the company from sending me all over the place for no damn reason. On another forum someone posted a trip with my company that was 100% deadhead. Ride out to some city on the Florida panhandle....ride back. If they are going to make stupid decisions like that, at least it'll be worth our time.
Same with duty rig. It's not "well im showing up for work. I deserve 4 hours of pay". It's more "I'm at work, use me efficiently so it's not a waste of my time." besides...they agreed to it.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Such a ridiculous thing could only be said by someone who has never actually been directly involved in the RLA bargaining process. If you really believe that unions have so much power, then you need to get an education. In the real world, unions have to convince the NMB that their demands are reasonable before the NMB will even consider allowing you to strike. And if you start issuing threats that you'll strike to management, then the NMB will probably smack you around for "not bargaining in good faith," and you'll lose all leverage. The real process is a lot more intricate than you seem to believe, and those crazy threats that you imply just don't happen in the real world, because they don't work.
I never said anything about "not helping the company until they treat me better." I just said that I have a contract, and I intend to enforce it. If the company feels that the work rules I have are intrusive on their ability to conduct business, then they can come to us and negotiate for changes that will better fit with their business model, just as we can negotiate for pay raises, retirement, or whatever else. It's a two way process.
This isn't the same relationship as a relationship between a car buyer and a car dealer. I don't have an ongoing symbiotic relationship with my car dealer. After the purchase is made, we go our separate ways. With an employer/employee relationship, there is an ongoing relationship that requires the cooperation of both parties for the success of the enterprise. If the company is going to be successful, then it will need employees that will work hard to make it so. And since we're dealing with human beings here, that means that you need to treat them relatively well, or their performance will reflect their lack of decent treatment. On the other hand, the employee needs the company to be successful in order for him to continue having a job to bring in a pay check. So, he needs to work hard to make it a success. When things in this relationship fall apart is when the company treats the employee so poorly that he starts to not care about the security of his job because he's so mad all the time about how he's treated. Then his performance suffers, and the company therefore suffers. In order for the company to be a success, and therefore be useful for both the managers and the employees, there needs to be a cooperative relationships. You see such a relationship at companies like Southwest Airlines, Google, Microsoft, Apple, etc. At companies where you don't see that, where employees have been treated as you apparently see them (disposable resources that should be happy just to receive a pay check), those companies falter, and if corrections aren't made, they eventually fail.
What would constitute an extenuating circumstance? Weather cancellations and an airport wide computer failure that's thrown everything into a massive charlie-foxtrot?
In the case of a 5+ hour flight, I can completely understand someone not taking the jumpseat simply because they don't want to. But in this case we're talking about flight that's normally blocked at 1:20 gate to gate tops.Doug Taylor said:
As for the agent flat out telling someone that they're moving their ass up to the jumpseat, that I can understand getting a swift "Uhh, no, you're crazy." Politely asking if maaaaybe they'd consider it would be different. Then again, I'm not an airline pilot, so I really can't say either way.
Could be, but I'm not going to accuse someone I don't know of lying. Am I frustrated that I could have potentially had a ride that would have prevented me from getting to work late? You bet, but as far as I know the guy gave a legitimate reason to keep himself out of trouble.ATN_Pilot said:
Nope, I didn't start until 1600 today. Which flight were you working? I man the ops radio Sunday and Monday afternoons so there's a good chance you've talked to me before.BobDDuck said:
You mean the Lektro sled thing? There's one older PSA capt that always forgets we have one and seems amazed by it every time. "So ya have to pull us forward first? Huh... how 'bout that." hahaha
Extenuating circumstance... Hmm.
If it was at the end of a rotation and a relatively short distance, I'd ride the jumpseat if I was asked politely.
At the beginning of a rotation, it was a long flight and I need to catch some Zzzzz's, probably not.
It just really all depends. Do I trust that the gate agent just didn't find someone sitting in a pilot uniform and ask me first?
If it was at the end of a rotation and a relatively short distance, I'd ride the jumpseat if I was asked politely.
At the beginning of a rotation, it was a long flight and I need to catch some Zzzzz's, probably not.
It just really all depends. Do I trust that the gate agent just didn't find someone sitting in a pilot uniform and ask me first?
Nick
Well-Known Member
Look, it's this simple.
The mainline company for one operation I know of treats the vendor employees like crap for no reason whatsoever, and the vendor company themselves does the same.
Nobody that works for the vendor company is doing either of them a favor in this lifetime in their current job position, big or small.
End of discussion.
Not that this probably has any relevance, but it was the FA that asked the guy if he'd mind riding up front. The gate agent wasn't on the plane at this point.Extenuating circumstance... Hmm.
If it was at the end of a rotation and a relatively short distance, I'd ride the jumpseat if I was asked politely.
At the beginning of a rotation, it was a long flight and I need to catch some Zzzzz's, probably not.
It just really all depends. Do I trust that the gate agent just didn't find someone sitting in a pilot uniform and ask me first?
